Author: montblanc

The US has to be punished somehow [Copy link] 中文

Rank: 4

Post time 2004-5-20 07:49:17 |Display all floors

Wishful thinking ,Tsupasat

The USA and allies did not go there to change anticlerical Saddam who had ability to keep in check fundamentalists both inside and across his western border for a next regime of clerics.
Leaving Saddam in power after the first Gulf war tells us something. He must have been viewed as the lesser evil than the iranizised Iraq.
After the Baat party has been destroyed (this was a kind of "real socialistic party") the winners of free elections if it happened today would be ayatollahs. I have no much dubt about it.
And this is definitely out of the objectives for which both first and second wars were run. From the point of american policy all efforts of these wars and in between i.e. the control of no-flight-zones would become trashed (less of course liberating Kuwait).
The situations is not funny at all,  they fell into a swamp. The more they try to get out , the more they sink.
Every next military action, which most of the time brings more colateral damage = dead iraqis and mourning families, even each bombing by terrorist =inability to safeguard order , brings down the credibility of the temporary iraqi government.
People there respect strong power, but not tyrrany, they have been run by a monoparty which took care of most of things (similar to what was in ex soviet bloc countries) and they become fed up with all this mess. From their point of view one year is about a period they can credit a trust. Seing worsening not improvement they blame gyus who are responsible-in these people minds=prevailing power, and in this situation this means Americans. To get them on your side you have to subdue insurgents, but when the latter propagate the vision of the defence in the religious crusade, you've got your hands cuffed.
I still think USA/UK overlooked and neglected the danger and turned their backs on UN. This was not only arogancy - worse- it was a mistake.
If allies don't come up soon with a clever solution they will stay in lose-lose situation.

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2004-5-20 10:08:00 |Display all floors

no way

i think the iraqis seem pretty smart people.  you have to remember that the guys who are fighting are doing so because they would lose out in an election.  that's why they want to hijack the process and cause chaos.  if they are sure they would win politically, why fight?  

you don't see sistani (the shiite leader) fighting, right?  that's cause he knows he's going to get his man in office once elections come around.  by the way, i'm not totally against an islamic government, as long as it doesn't impose sharia (strict islamic law, a la taliban).  

i think americans and the rest of the world should hold bush to his promise and see there are free and fair elections (and that the u.s. won't say "do over!" if they don't like the results).

ts

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Rank: 4

Post time 2004-5-20 22:01:23 |Display all floors

its a question how you see it all

The elements of the puzzle we see in the similar way, Tsupasat.
You're right , the furthest fundamentalist would not get a prevailing support from Iraqis. Their target  is the evil=America. These blokes are beyond reach of any thoughts exchange , disputes. They are brain-proof. Nothing else than the implanted hatred can come to their minds.
Sistami doesn't get involved for the time being. He does everything to avoid any connection with the american backed governing councill.  Al Sadr and various warring groups are the best background for him , a filler/distancer between him and the wall.
As everything is relative in this world ,this also refers to this situation. If you had known his ideas for the future, you wouldn't like it at all, be sure.
For Iraqis though he tries to be seen as a moderate peace loving man.
Both Americans and sadrists push Iraqis under his "shelter".
If voting takes place today he wins hands down. Later , having taken police forces in a tight grip he would finish the revolutionary/fundamentalist islamists  with a speed which could be only envied by all-mighty american army. Look at the history of mujahedeens in Iran. They were needed at the beginning, given judge&slaughter powers and when they had played their role, the top heads in Iran "disappeared" them very quickly.
Every revolution devours her own children , especially these ultrazealous.
Withdrawal today means enthroning Sistani and secand Iran with no less sharia in the beginning.

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2004-5-21 13:26:39 |Display all floors

Rummy said

that, "the charge is abuse, abuse is not the same as torture...". ""The America that abused those prisoners is not the America I (George Bush) know(s)", of course not, it was Iraq!" -- The Daily Show with Jon Stewart

Watch Georgie's eyes blink on the Arab press interviews! Wonder what Scotland's Yard's slueths would think of that! They have a specialist unit that studies blinking and lying, I saw one of those BBC-PBS specials, where they said something about the correlation between blinking and lying, does anyone else remember it?

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Rank: 4

Post time 2004-6-2 18:19:38 |Display all floors

no reason for this to be an issue

what's the fuss? War is war... everything happens. What if your friend might have been drug around mutilated and burned, other friends killed, would you yourself make sure they have a comfortable stay? Although it's not ideal, it understandable why it happened. Does eveyone forget 9-11 and the mutilated people, or do you just wish to judge america. Why should america be punished? If i had lost a close person, I would have done much worse than what had happened to them. Whether it's moral or not. And I can assure you more americans have been abused than the other way around. Why werent you complaining about the numerous accounts it had happened to the US, but you are quick to complain once it happens to america. Although I dont know which country you are from, but Im sure in your history things have been more out of control. Did america try to punish you for it? I think you just want to insult a great country. Im sure if these events happened to your country, you would feel much different. Hey, look at Taiwan, much worse, so who's to talk?

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Rank: 1

Post time 2004-6-4 09:03:56 |Display all floors

Collective Responsibility and US policy

<p>There are some pretty heavy-duty ideas being presented here. I think it would be good to bring
up the official US position on "accountability".</p>

<p>First, some questions to illustrate the issue. Are people in a country responsible for the
actions of their government? Is a government responsible for the actions of it's citizens? Were
the american troops who tortured Iraqis acting independently of the US, or were they official
state represntatives, doing the work of the US congress and president?</p>

<p>Now the ideal answers to these questions are the subject of millenia of debate. But the US has
come up with its own answers, and has abided by them for quite a while.</p>

<p>The US believes: people in a country are responsible for the actions of their government unless
they are actively working by any means nessecary to either change those actions or get rid of the
government. And not just some of the people, either. All of them.</p>

<p>Governments are accountable for the acts of it's citizens only if: The government knew about
them, could have stopped them, and didn't try.</p>

<p>Where did I get this information? History. During world war II, the US and UK firebombed entire
cites at once. Precision bombing had not yet been invented. Usually, towns with factories in them
were targeted. But in many cases, cities that had almost no industry and were not vital to their
countries' war effort were destroyed, along with the people in them. These were not military
targets, and the intention was not to avoid killing civilians, but the exact opposite.</p>

<p>So how did the Allies justify the deaths of hundreds of thousands of cilivlians? Collective   
responsibility. Because the people of Hamburg and Tokyo and Dresden were not actively trying to
change or get rid of their government, their approval of the govt's actions was assumed, thus
justifying their deaths.</p>

<p>This is more logical than it might seem. Government, no matter what kind, is impossible without
the at least implicit support of a majority of the people of that country. Whether they are scared
into submission, or actually support the actions, is not relevant by this theory. The outcome is
the same: their government has their support, even if unwilling, and thus is even possible.
Governments cannot exist, much less mobilize to fight wars, without the implicit or implied  
consent of i's people.</p>

<p>By this logic, which, irrespective of what you beleive it should do, <i>is</i> what the US
believes and guides it's actions by, The only people responsible for the actions at abu ghraib are
the people who did it, the people who ordered it, and anybody who did know about who did nothing.
In order for the US government to be held responsible (by who?) for the actions at abu ghraib, it
would have had to have known about them, and then either authorized them or done nothing. It did
neither.  As soon as the Senate and House of Representatives found out out what had happened,
immediate investigations were launched, with the support of the American people. The people who
did those actions, the people who knew about them but did nothing, and the people who ordered  
those actions, are responsible. </p>

<p>The US congress and American people fit into none of those categories. The people who do fit   
into those categories are being found, court-martialed, and put in prison.</p>

<p>For those of you who note that the US has tried very hard for the last 50 years to avoid
killing civilians, the US has really not needed to enforce collective responsibility since WWII.
For one thing, no country has really been able to threaten the survival of the US has actually
attacked it. For another, no country has attacked the US directly since then. Troops are
threatened, but not the US itself. Another reason is that the actions of countries the US has  
fought have not really merited bringing out collective responsibility.</p>

<p>Countries that collective responsibility (US style) <i>could</i> apply to are:</p> <p>Any
democracy <br>china (rule by consensus) <br>Iran <br>any com$$ist country <br>North korea in
particular</p>

<p>This is almost certainly the logic of monsters to you. Being killed for the actions of your
government probably does not appeal to you. However, ask yourself: Did I know my government was
doing those things? When I did find out, what did I do about it? Am I actively trying to change my
governments actions? Does my government represent me, and if not, why on earth does it still
exist?</p>

<p>Just a quick intro to the official US government policy on the matter at hand.</p>

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Post time 2004-6-6 17:15:46 |Display all floors

A stepback and look at a global picture

A country like America is punished by the embarrasment of such actions of a few persons.
In China thins like this happen every day, published in many news papers and get no notice at all. No group is required to address the situation and it is the normal. It gets little media notice because it is all done by one government body.

Billions of dollars of public funds, bank bailouts, theft reports by top government officials, daily coverup stories and news media that puplishes conflicting reports on the same issue.

The as a whole shpould be reviewed by the people.

I just read several reports about how large US companies are taking over China market place.... and how Prince Charles and Lord Mathues came to China personaly to sign the deal....!!!! Both parties the large US companies controled by France and London... and are not controled by Americans... If you look real hard you will find that the Countries that do not publish GDP's own most of the Global big companies that Control USA and are Now taking over China.

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