Author: abramicus

Japan Should Relinquish Diaoyudao Immediately . . .   [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2012-12-23 23:47:17 |Display all floors
Eudaimonia Post time: 2012-12-23 12:48
There's no evidence of this, there's just some maps and the fact that they gave the islands a nam ...

The US goes many places it doesn't belong, doesn't mean those territories rightfully belong to them.

It is very interesting that you say there is a factory because I have never seen any human habitation on the island. I did an image search before saying that no one was using the islands because I didn't know if someone was actually using it or not and I wouldn't take media claims that it was uninhabited at face value. In all of the satellite photos I saw no evidence of structures. In the photos taken by aircraft I also saw no human structures. This suggests to me that Japan has not done anything on the island either. I'm happy to simply go along with what you said since you seem to be a clever young man but the lack of any evidence of use beyond statements is a bit disturbing for me.

Your argument still seems to boil down to saying: "The Japanese stole the islands from China during the Sino-Japanese War and therefore it is rightfully theirs". Another Chinese territory that the Japanese stole during the Sino-Japanese war was T.aiwan, which was rightfully returned to the "Republic of China" according to the Cairo and Potsdam declarations. So if T.aiwan which was taken at the same time was rightfully returned, then shouldn't all Chinese territories taken during the Sino-Japanese war also have been returned? Used or not did not come into this equation. It was soverign territory of China, just like T.aiwan and should therefore have been returned, not illegally occupied by Japan and it's master: the US.

Your last paragraph completely skips the reasons you were already provided with showing why the issue was not brought up earlier.

If I were a pretentious idiot I would end with a snarky one liner. Regardless of what others may think I don't think I am one so instead I will thank you for taking the time to present your ideas on this issue and for allowing us to see a clear example of what the anti-China forces believe on this issue. It is very valuable to have incorrect views presented for us to dissect.

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Post time 2012-12-24 00:25:21 |Display all floors
HardTruth Post time: 2012-12-23 23:47
The US goes many places it doesn't belong, doesn't mean those territories rightfully belong to the ...
I'm happy to simply go along with what you said since you seem to be a clever young man

Maybe the fact that noone is saying that this is not true should be enough for you, it should be enough to change your mind but a simple google search for it should produce some old pictures.

Your argument still seems to boil down to saying: "The Japanese stole the islands from China during the Sino-Japanese War and therefore it is rightfully theirs".


Nope.

My argument is that there's not enough proof that the islands were Chinese back in the 18XX. There's only some silly maps (silly because they prove nothing) and the fact that the islands have a chinese name in those maps. That's not proof.

Anyway, even if the islands were many years ago Chinese (which there's insufficient proof of) the Japanese did survey them for several years and found them to be terra nulious (meaning noone was using them) and they declared them to be Japanese territory in 1895.

After that they built a factory on them and used the islands, for ~50 years. This factory is the only known and undisputed use the islands EVER had.

Since 1895 the islands are under Japanese or U.S. (in Japan's place) control. China disputing that has come after there was the discovery that those islands are valueable in the early 70's.

So... From the 18XX's the islands are under Japanese control, China wants them in the 20XX's is simply ludicrous. It's like saying that Constantinople should be returned to the Greeks OR America to the native American indians but also without any actual proof that it was ever indian or Greek. That's how silly it is.

The islands are currently under Japanese control, and this is an undisputed fact. If China wants war then China can move in to take the islands. If this happens some may say "China tried to take back what was rightfully hers" some may say the opposite but the truth is that it will be China making the move - not Japan.

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Post time 2012-12-24 00:53:00 |Display all floors
Eudaimonia Post time: 2012-12-24 00:25
Maybe the fact that noone is saying that this is not true should be enough for you, it should be  ...

So really it comes down to the point that you don't accept the fact that China found the islands first because there isn't much paperwork saying so (it is a fair point, after all the original generals in the 1800s could just be making stuff up).

Fair enough, that really is a pretty subjective point and its up to the people involved whether they accept it or not. I would be careful about using the term Terra Nullius as the British declared Australia terra nullius despite there being thousands of indigenous people! Just because the Japanese said no one was there doesn't mean that is true. It seems a claim from the Chinese is specious to you but a Japanese claim is trustworthy.

Again, no image I have turned up on any image search showed any habitation on the island. Please look for yourself if you do not believe me. The satellite and aerial photos clearly show an uninhabited island however I would be very interested in seeing one that showed otherwise.

Of course any change of ownership has to come from actions on the Chinese side. An occupier doesn't have to do anything to ensure his domination continues and Japan will not return what it has stolen of its own volition. As for wanting war. The only force that wants war is the US and its Asian cronies. China has long held a diplomatic policy of avoiding conflicts and postponing territorial claims until the countries involved can negotiate in a reasonable manner. It is the Japanese side that has provoked China by denying China's rightful claim and exercising illegal sovereignty in territory that doesn't belong to it. If Japan were honestly interested in peace then it would not provoke action, or should China allow foreign countries to carve up its territory?

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Post time 2012-12-24 01:18:31 |Display all floors
This post was edited by Eudaimonia at 2012-12-24 01:20
It seems a claim from the Chinese is specious to you but a Japanese claim is trustworthy.

That's fair i guess, lets agree to call both of them equaly untrustworthy then. What remains is the truth (that the Chinese don't doubt) that Japan has the islands since 18XX until right now, that China first protested in the 1970's (after a survey revealed resources under the islands) and that the islands were only EVER actually used by Japan.


Again, no image I have turned up on any image search showed any habitation on the island.

Did you google the words senkaku and factory ?

Edit: AAAAA, it seems that you're talking about now, i'm talking about ~60+ years ago.

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Post time 2012-12-24 08:11:37 |Display all floors
This post was edited by abramicus at 2012-12-24 08:14

HardTruth uses facts and logic to argue.  Eudaemonia uses fallacies and insults to discredit others.  The end result is Eudaemonia has discredited himself, and HardTruth comes out winning hands down.

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