Author: macanese

Is the PLA a Paper Dragon ? - Wall Street Journal - July 03, 2012. [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2012-7-7 14:49:02 |Display all floors

In 1951 the US forces were demobilized and filled with poor recruits while all the WWII veterans had gone home, by contrast the chinese PVA had a large number of veterans going back to the communist war against Japan and the soviets were armed to the teeth and sharing.


You know why US forces were then of such inferior quality. It was because those who were brought into the war were from Japan, lording over the subservient Japanese and exploiting the woman. As such , they were so used to soft petulant lives.
  1. -While planning the battle Mcarthur and UN generals did not yet believe china had intervened in the war. Such was supposed to require a formal declaration by the rules of war and at least decency, but I guess you guys learned from the Japs huh? It was estimated at the most there were 30,000 chinese auxiliaries in the area before the battle. There was closer to 200,000 and more coming across the border north. China would ultimately deploy 1.3 million of it's men to korea despite never declaring war.
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The US never officially declared war in Vietnam either. Truman did not want China to be drawn officially into the war because that would involve greater US commitment.
  1. -The PLA (because the PVA is a just a cover for what we know is the PLA) general in command was aware that the US and UN was unaware of china's intervention or it's truth strength in the area. He took advantage and made to quickly encircle the 8th army by surprise, some would call it a cowardly attempt to perform a pearl harbor attack on the ground against an army instead a fleet at port. The US 8th, upon realizing that china was present in full force, withdrew in order to escape being surrounded, while it was a victory for china the goal of using the surprise to surround was never accomplished, and the fighting light over all.
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At last , there was a stalemate. and the border was drawn between N and S Korea. The US lost the war becasue their aim was to get close to China or even into China. However, all the Chinese wanted was for the US 8th Army to move far away from China's border. Finally, the US Army stayed quietly in Yongsan Garrison in Seoul.

So china's only temporary and merely strategic victory cost them more losses at a more unfavorable ratio than ever before in the PLA's history, this was all reversed later when the US army regained the initiative in a few months. From china's side, the war became a complete stalemate that it would have to sacrifice lives en masse to maintain. For the US, it became a war that to be won would require escalation, bombing of mainland china because breaking the stalemate in such an isolated theatre strategically difficult with numerical inferiority. Consider yourself lucky the president went as far to fire one of the US best generals ever because he was determined to do what it took to win and fck the politics of it. I admire Macarthur. Truman preferred the stalemate, but then Truman is considered one of the worst presidents ever in retrospect, pretty soundly too. So very lucky for you
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MarArthur was sacked because he was recalcitrant and an inhuman war maniac. He even wanted to nuke China. The fact that he remains popular shows us what Americans really are: a bunch of humbug non-respecters of human lives. They remain the only country in the world that has dropped two bombs on humanity despite knowing that Japan was already totally destroyed.

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Post time 2012-7-7 20:29:26 |Display all floors
LaughsatYou Post time: 2012-7-7 09:52
Ok, we can let the longest retreat in history statement stand, but it has little or nothing to do w ...

First thank you for taking the time to make such a long response and I will just address a couple of the salient points ........

While planning the battle Mcarthur and UN generals did not yet believe china had intervened in the war. Such was supposed to require a formal declaration by the rules of war and at least decency,


It is on record that China told the US that if it crossed the 38th parallel into N. Korea that China would defend N. Korea. The US ignored this and took the consequences. McArthur felt safe in the knowledge that the PVA would be unable to get the necessary firepower into N. Korea because massive US air cover superiority and the fact the Chinese had none to speak of.  The PVA flooded N. Korea with troops and only moved at night to get into position and it was a tactic that McArthur did not factor in.

China's losses had much to do with the lack of aircover and supplies in the main part again to the former.

Truman preferred the stalemate, but then Truman is considered one of the worst presidents ever in retrospect, pretty soundly too. So very lucky for you.


I believe that you have not included a major piece of the politics at that time. Stalin funded the action of N. Korea and it was the beginning of the 'Cold-War'. It was in Stalin's scheme to tie up the western forces in a fight against China and Mao was a willing partner in this. Stalin knew that with the west tied up in Asia that Europe became vunerable to Russia, and Stalin wanted to try out specifically the new generation of fighters based off Rolls-Royce engines sent from Britain as a gift at the end of WWII. However, when the US shipped 34 nukes to Korea to drop on 5 Chinese cities and the Yalu pass the Eurpeans messed their pants because Europe could not be held in a war between Europe and Russia with Asian conflict on the table. The Eurpeans and the US decided that ramping up the escalation was what Stalin wanted. Stalin died in March 53 and Kruschev told China to finish the negotiations and close the war.

As to the losses, the phsychology was that when the body bags started arriving back in the US in their thousands then the US public would call for an end and that with China's vast population the numbers although unbalanced would still be a very small number reletively. Therfore although China was techincally out-gunned especially in the most important area in the air it used the superior numbers as a weapon.

Please do not become so emotionally involved. It is only a topic and your unecessary comments at the end of your post do not add to the topic but rather show your ideas in a negative light .........


What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left  -   Oscar Levant

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Post time 2012-7-7 22:58:28 |Display all floors
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Post time 2012-7-7 23:11:50 |Display all floors
You better believe our missiles are also made of paper.

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Post time 2012-7-7 23:19:16 |Display all floors
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Post time 2012-7-7 23:22:39 |Display all floors
This post was edited by expatter at 2012-7-7 23:24
LaughsatYou Post time: 2012-7-7 22:58
Of course someone chinese wouldn't be familiar with civilized rules of war, and you wonder why we  ...

Of course someone chinese wouldn't be familiar with civilized rules of war,


It is still on the record that the US knew in crossing the 38th parallel that it would bring China into the war. Therefore ignoring that was at the choice of those who ignored it and claiming the US was a 'victim' is not an option ........

Besides, china had no right to interfere with a UN mission fighting an obvious tyrant


And by what right does the US claim the right to interfere with an internal conflict in a sovereign country. It is certainly not manadated in UN laws as the UN was set up for conflicts between different countries. I mean 'Korea attacked Korea' where does that involve the UN .......  ?

you are evil pigs for believing so. We don't respect you and you disgust us.


I am not Chinese, I am British and many in Asia are 'disgusted' that the US believes that killing 5 million in Korea and 4 million in Vietnam is beyond the pail.

Nice chinese type history there... about as reliable as chinese economic figures.


I think that the 1950's can rightly be called history now unless you would like a lecture in how the US were world leaders in euthanasia of the disabled and impaired and how Hitler's regime used much of the research from the US to base their portfolio, and of course not propagandized in the US now but still archived ........

WWII, do you know how many russians died and that the most economically important parts of russia were shattered?


But you told me in the previous thread that they were equal in their ability and how the weakened US was beaten by the Chinese because they were caught 'off-guard'. Would you like to revise which is true here as your anomalous ideas are confusing at this point  .........

It is a pyrrhic victory, and a desperate one.


Yes it worked  .....

I only respect you less for the false twists you add.


But you might like to show here where you can claim such a right ........

And obviously not just based on the number of smileys posted  ......  




What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left  -   Oscar Levant

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Post time 2012-7-7 23:50:01 |Display all floors
LaughsatYou Post time: 2012-7-7 23:39
Then why not DECLARE war? Because you want the sneak attack... low and you are lower for trying to ...

You have been reported for abuse .......

I have tried to discuss honestly with you  .......

But you seem to feel that you can win an argument with abuse  ......

You have wriggled and tergiversated and contradicted yourself in your argument so far and this is purely based on nonsense  ......

Only eleven members voted in the UN for that mandate ......

I will not bother with you as you are clearly without any idea of the real facts  ......

And you need abuse to bolster you asthenic nationalistic replies .......

That is a FAIL on your part  ......

What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left  -   Oscar Levant

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