Author: wchao37

The India-China conflict viewed through a Chinese kaleidoscope [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2004-3-4 22:56:56 |Display all floors

Answers to Seneca's queries

Mr. Magoo is blind but he is still able to walk anywhere safely because he listens well to the echoing sounds in his environment.

You have now been given three chances to read the post and I must say the results are not very encouraging.  Obviously you have not listened carefully to the message even when you read it aloud and listened with the good ear.  You should learn from Mr. Magoo.

Your remarks are bold-faced at the BEGINNING of each section as usual.


<b>I can't see in what way I got anything wrong from your post. Did I jump to any false conclusions? Did I attribute to you any non-existent feeling of superiority? Prove me wrong if you can - meanwhile I maintain: your post is riddled with judgmental statements and sinocentredness that conspire to put the shame on you. </b>

As I had said unequivocally in the post, the Chinese people do not feel bad if their Indian neighbors improve their lot.  They don't compare with them day-in and day-out.  Yet I find that this is what the Indians are doing all the time in regards to China.  

Masterkung's posts are just a tip of the iceberg.  You don't see Chinese hanging onto the coat-tails of their Indian neighbors and cry, "Look at me, look at me.  I am as handsome as you are."

Your Defense Minister with the peculiarly European name of George Fernandez pointed to China as India's top enemy in 1998.  It was astonishing to many of us at that time.  Yes, I am just telling you how the majority of Chinese people felt when they heard the remark.  It sounded exactly like a very jealous woman talking to a pretty lady who had just won the beauty pageant and was basking in the glory of the world's accolades.

"Don't feel happy too long.  I am going to destroy your face with acid," said the incensed woman with a bottle of sulfuric acid in her hand.

Similarly, the Chinese people never realize the grudges Indians bear towards them because there wasn't much communication between them.  I knew that from day one when I went abroad to study because I could read all kinds of Indian newspapers in the library for many years.  All of them were without exception anti-Chinese.  I was astonished because my family friends included some very nice Indian people.

In the Indian media you will find that they are always putting the Chinese down even as they are marveling at the good quality of Chinese goods.  In contrast, Chinese newspapers NEVER denigrate the Indians.  Indians are by and large treated very well in China, and those in Hongkong were given permanent residency status after the retrocession of the Colony back to China in 1997.  These folks have no reason to bear these negative feelings towards the Chinese.  

<b><u>It is an unfortunate trait amongst former colonial peoples that when finally they gain their freedom they do not hate their former masters, but instead turn their wrath towards those who are PRAISED by their former masters, because <u>in their minds</u> such praise serves as a painful reminder of their own shortcomings.</b></u>

The focus of wrath of the Indians should have been directed towards the Brits who literally owned India body and soul like a concubine for centuries.  Incredibly, China got the cake in the face Three-Stooges style.

In fact, before the Brits came there was no such country called India.  It was the Brits who unified the land like Napoleon did in forging the Confederation of the Rhine by molding three hundred German city-states and principalities into one political unit, thereby inadvertently contributing to the formation of France's implacable foe -- the German Third Reich -- in the Twentieth Century. The Brits did this by forcing dozens of warring states to forge a union so that they could rule more efficiently from their East India Company in Calcutta.

In the case of Hongkong Indians, they tend to congregate in certain commercial districts such as Tsimshatsui on the Kowloon side.  Here the Indians get along very well with the Chinese in communities that they share.  Unlike the Brits, the Chinese have no superiority feelings towards the Indians just like they have none towards their all-weather friends the Pakistanis.  Ask any Indian or Pakistani in Hongkong and you'd find this statement to be true.  

<b>In fact, this is true of the Chinese civilization itself-- Chinese people simply don't discriminate against poorer nations and the corollary of this is that they do not suck up to richer ones.</b>  

Being a Chinese myself, I am no exception to the rule.  That's why when you use the word "haughty," I knew you had probably projected your own feelings about Orientals onto me and thought that this is what I SHOULD have felt if you were in my shoes.

<b>So let me emphasize this important point: the word "haughty" is your projection and transference of your own feelings onto me. </b>

The Chinese people living in China hardly noticed the existence of Indians and seldom alluded to them in their media.  I think the Indians noticed this lack of attention not only from China but from the rest of the world.   So they built up their military arsenal including nuclear weapons to grab the world’s attention and not because of their security needs.  As China's restraint and other events after the 1962 border war showed, who’s going to attack the Indians?  What do they need those nuclear weapons for?  

If China did not take advantage of her absolute dominance during and after the 1962 war why would they start afterwards for that matter?  

Was there any historical precedent that China had attacked south of the Himalayas at any time including her Heydays?  

Did Admiral Zheng He’s huge ships and twenty-thousand-plus soldiers disembark on the coast of India and went on a marauding rampage at any time during his seven trips from 1405 to 1433?

There is simply nothing there to explain all these negative emotions on the part of the Indians.  I call these negative emotions "jealousy."  I think the quick temper reflected in your response shows that you don't call such emotions jealousy, and that because I said it was jealousy you labeled me as being 'haughty.'


<b>So Once again: I am no Indian, and haven't been to India in many years; yet the fact that India is storming forward economically and scientifically is evident. Many renowned researchers at European and US laboratories and universities hail from India; many publications are signed by Indian natives and Indian novelists have won some of the most coveted literary prizes. Where are the Chinese? </b>

You must be either an Anglo man or his European mistress.  Only such a person is shameless enough to provoke a fight between the Indians and Chinese so as to fish in the muddled waters.  You folks are pastmasters at stirring up trouble, as the events in South Africa, Palestine and Kashmir have proven beyond reasonable doubt again and again.

Why are you here alleging non-existent feelings on my part when you are not even an Indian?  The Anglos stir up trouble in other nations everywhere they go.  Divide and rule -- that's how they managed to ravage the Indians for centuries before the great Gandhi came along and said "no more!"  We know their tricks.  Any objective observer would have noticed what I am saying here is factual and devoid of any ‘haughtiness.’

Your mention of Indians 'storming forward' is anachronistic – the phenomenon has gone on for years.  Many hospitals in North America are staffed by Indian doctors, who form the largest segment of foreign doctors sitting for the ECFMG examinations.  

However, achievement overseas is not the same as indigenous success.  What you are saying is that it proves that they have earned their bragging rights. I am saying they haven’t.  You really shouldn’t read too much into a simple statement of fact.


<b>Still, it would never have crossed my mind to compare the two supernations as China clearly has a head start over India - mostly owing to its overseas Chinese talents that were and still are being wooed back to the land of their ancestors from where their grandparents fled generations ago.

I have heard about India's economic prowess and performance through international rather than Indian-owned publications - i.e. FAR EASTERN ECONOMIC REVIEW, SPIEGEL (of Germany) and French and Italian online magazines.

You said, wchao37, 'misunderstood' your post, but I really can't see how you can make such a claim. Just explain whether the following from your post is NOT meant to be derogatory to the Indians or self-elevating for the Chinese:

"...jealousy is a very destructive emotion... ... incessantly make inane comparisons are the basis of one-upmanship and not on a spirit of mutual benefit and sincere cooperation, a neighbor who development is still largely non-existent..."

Had you been referring to the Chinese in this way you no doubt your illustrious xenophobic peers would have had a field day hacking you into pieces.</b>

What is a supernation?  I think you have a tendency to supersize your French fries too often and hence your remarks sound very constipatory.

Again, you have not quoted me faithfully even though it would have been just a simple cut-and-paste function.  My original post says:

"...... jealousy is a very destructive emotion and based on my experience living in three continents, it is very difficult to handle a neighbor who is incessantly make inane comparisons on the basis of one-upmanship and not on a spirit of mutual benefit and sincere cooperation, a neighbor who boasts of fanciful accomplishments when the social basis of such development is still largely non-existent."

You quoted me as having said:

""...jealousy is a very destructive emotion... ... incessantly make inane comparisons are the basis of one-upmanship and not on a spirit of mutual benefit and sincere cooperation, a neighbor who development is still largely non-existent..."

...without any indication that the out-of-context passage had been truncated extensively.

Please have the decency to follow forum etiquette and make complete and precise quotations, or at least make your intentions clear.

Yes, China has a great Diaspora, but so do the Indians, and so do the Jews.  

The difference between Chinese and Indians is not that much when it comes to family values.  Few Chinese went abroad in pre-modern times because it was considered lacking in filial piety to leave your parents when they are still alive. Similarly, the Indians used to frown on their expatriates.  This attitude has changed and increasingy the Indian Diaspora is being encouraged to help India to find capital for development just as the Chinese Diaspora did.  The software industry in Bengalore was built with a large dose of foreign capital.

The biggest difference between Chinese and Jews is that Chinese are never politically oriented and that's a legacy of the unique Chinese  experience as indentured labor to foreign lands.  Therefore during times of stress they were likely to become scapegoats, e.g. in the Indonesian riots in 1998.  This nonchalant attitude has now changed especially in North America and the younger generations have become much more active politically and most of them do not live in Chinatowns any more.   

In contrast, Jews have won a lot of political clout in the United States, so Jewish power in the world is disproportionate to the tiny size of Israel.  Last year alone Israel was number three in terms of global arms export.  How does a small country like Israel find the money to develop the Falcon surveillance airplanes and other sophisticated weapons, if not because their Diaspora in all continents help them financially and politically?

The fact that you read only Western magazines to gather information on India shows that you are a victim of their omnipresent propaganda.  

Do you know who the owners of those magazines are?  Check into their background.  Why do they always sing praise to India and not China?  Is it not a reflection of the fact that they are not concerned about the Indians like they are of the much more independent-minded and self-reliant Chinese?  

<b>What's more, the Indians act as if they are afraid that the world has forgotten about their existence.  So they grab China by the throat and yelled, "It's all because of you that they don't pay attention to me.  I am going to build atom bombs and warships and tell the world that these are directed at you so that especially the Americans and the Jews will help me because of your pro-Palestinian stance.  Even the Russians are selling me more sophisticated versions of their planes than they are willing to sell to you, and recently I even bought from them a refurbished modern aircraft carrier cheap cheap.  I know they want to build me up militarily so that I can do things to you in ways that they can't afford to themselves.”

That in a nutshell is why the sale of the Israeli Falcons to China was cancelled at the last moment and re-directed to India.</b>

<b><u>At a time when post-colonial countries ought to join hands in opposing the comeback attempts of neo-imperialists and neo-colonialists, India has chosen to align herself with her erstwhile oppressors in harming the interests of another Asian country which had never invaded or enslaved her like the Anglos had.   That is one of the reasons why India has not gained a measure of true respect in the eyes of the world.

This lack of respect has in turn churned up more jealousy and hatred of the Chinese amongst the spurned Indians.  They have illogically ascribed the world's disrespect or lack of interest in them to China's successful counterattack in the 1962 border war. </b></u>

To an unbiased observer, the war demonstrated more than anything else that China had no ambitions in India -- she grabbed no land and instead withdrew to a border BEHIND the disputed McMahon Line in the Eastern Sector of the boundary.  

Present allegations that the Indians were unprepared for the war is pure hogwash, since in the beginning only Chinese soldiers were reported killed in the border dispute before China attacked.  In fact, the Chinese were the ones caught by surprise when Nehru advanced his troops unilaterally and killed Chinese sentries stationed along the border.

When the war ended all prisoners and material (including trucks and guns) were returned to India in sterling clean condition.  China demonstrated by her deeds that she had no territorial ambitions towards India and no ill will towards her people.

In sum, you cannot blame the Chinese for India's failure to solicit interest or respect from the rest of the world.  Even Rodney Dangerfield would have understood the background behind the headlines.

Don't believe everything you read in the Western media, especially the <i>FEER</i> and <i>The Economist.</i>  Not to trust them is the first sign of a truly educated man.


<b>lease, please, if you do believe China can sustain its economic growth, technological progress and social stability while achieving unrivalled super-power status you can say so without displaying anti-Indian haughtiness; it's always best to keep one's counsel in matters of future predictions. </b>

Sounds like you are waiting impatiently for China to fail so that the West can return to enslave the people of the rest of the planet again.

No country can sustain growth indefinitely, especially since China has many endemic problems to solve.  However, the general trend is positive and optimism prevails everywhere.

The Chinese are not competing with anyone else.  They compete only with themselves. For all that I care, India can have her Hindu rate of growth but the Chinese definitely prefer their Chinese rate of growth.  This is not one-upmanship.  This is a fact of life in contemporary history.

Don't read too much into that article in Foreign Affairs authored by an Indian professor at Harvard Business School.  Professors are notoriously out of touch with reality at Ground Zero in the business world.  That article was written with the intention of pulling India up by the ears while simultaneously downplaying Chinese prospects.  The arguments are flawed in that the concentration of wealth and power in a few Indian conglomerates, combined with a social system which ignores the grassroots inefficiency of the caste system, is a dangerous setup for social instability.  

What India needs is a revolution.  The country is like broken pieces of glass held together by superglue.  A revolution would mold it into a more homogeneous society like China's under Mao.

Economically, China's growth is entirely independent of her attitude towards the Indians.  

It is the Indians who are talking big about surpassing America in the next twenty years.  

It is the Indians who want to attract attention to themselves by feigning not to see China on their radar screen of futuristic prognostications.  

It is the Indians who are talking about the Twenty First Century being an Indian century.  

<b>Like a certain personality in this forum, the jealousy is so intense that India cannot live one day without denigrating China's efforts at building up her economy and bettering the lives of her citizens..  

When negative emotions become so intense, all reasoning faculties stop functioning, and every Chinese achievement is considered immaterial, insignificant, bloated or FAKED.

In fact I can tell you -- China does not want to be a superpower.  Deng Xiaoping said in so many words at the UN Assembly in 1974 in his capacity as vice-premier of China at that time.

A superpower is a curse you bestow upon your enemy. China only wants to make progress peacefully and be a responsible member of the world community.  This is because her previous national vicissitudes have taught her that there is no need to brag when you are ahead and no need to beg when you are behind. </b>

The Chinese people are proud of their country and their civilization like the way children are proud of their parents, not the way Western slave-owners were proud of their ability to exploit native populations.  

China is genuinely concerned with helping other nations and this win-win attitude is unique in the history of rise of powerful nations.  

Such peaceful rise has the stamp of peace-loving Chinese culture written all over it, and that's making the present superpower very uncomfortable.  They are spoiling for a fight and unfortunately the Indians are uncannily helping them.


<b>Monsieur Hagege has studied so many languages I can't prove him right or wrong; among other things he wrote erudite articles about some Peking dialect idioms that clearly show he knows his turf</b>

In my humble opinion, being able to write about dialect differences has nothing to do with his actually knowing 140 languages.  His claim to ‘know’ 140 languages is like claiming his 'having had 140 women in his life.'  In that event you would assume from your own personal experience that he is talking about 140 wives or girlfriends with whom he had been sharing breakfast unshaved at some time during his life, when in fact he might simply have visited 139 prostitutes and has an old, nagging, jealous Singaporean shrew for a wife.

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chairman has been deleted
Post time 2004-3-4 23:20:19 |Display all floors

I am very impressed as always with, my fellow Chinese Patriot, wchao37

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Post time 2004-3-5 04:07:57 |Display all floors

This is no Eskimo debate


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Post time 2004-3-5 11:05:28 |Display all floors

Last one on Eskimos, I promise, Harrison

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Post time 2004-3-5 12:55:25 |Display all floors

Seneca, you don't deserve an answer

"propagandistic overkill and sinocentred opinionatedness. "

Pure venom here from a rattle-snake.

wchao37 gave you three chances saying that he "did not want to embarrass you" and you blew it, and your inability to write a few words in simple English shows that you couldn't understand the message.

and all you can do is to scribble some nonsense in Greek.

Once again, it shows that the slimy molds in this forum are illiterate desperados.

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Post time 2004-3-6 19:36:26 |Display all floors

Dear Capitan, this is anti-devil. Do you remember the Monty Python movies.?

I hope so.

This reminds me of a Monty Python Movie, the one where John Gleese plays the Valiant Knight.

The Champion knight, cuts off his arm and John Gleese still wants to fight with one arm.

Then the Champion Knight cuts off his other arm and one leg and John Gleese still wants to fight.

So the Champion knight, cuts off the other leg and his head and the head is on the ground, rolling around yelling he still wants to fight.

So we have just this head with no way to win, still wants to fight the Champion knight.

So funny. So very funny.

If there is ever a movie about this post.

Wchao37 will play the Champion knight.

seneca will play the HEAD.

Just the same as here.

So funny.!

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Post time 2004-3-6 22:05:04 |Display all floors

Hi 'wchao37'!

You write:

<<<< Don't believe everything you read in the Western media, especially the FEER and The Economist. Not to trust them is the first sign of a truly educated man. >>>>

Always trying to get unbiased information I ask you, which do YOU recommend?

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