Author: rethink

The Japanese view of the Chinese Civilization [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2005-2-2 11:08:29 |Display all floors

Keep the flame burning.

This post was also posted on another website, as you probably know.  The responses are all wonderfully varied and eye-opening.  I apologise for not repying to each forumite individually.  I think you are all doing a good job debating each other already.  However I must state clearlly that I do not think the Chinese Civilization is dead or beyong redemtion.  As one of you said, it is too early to pass the final judgement or any definitive judgement on the Chinese Civilization as yet.  Carry on the debate, folks.

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Post time 2005-2-3 16:23:34 |Display all floors

Reply to Messrs sleeping Rethink.

First, who is John Mak?

Second, Normally neighbouring nations tend to "respect" and emulate "culturally and materially superior nations". At the "blip or error of time", China in the past 150 year was not at its cultural and material best. This has happen several times during the last 5,000 years.

So your queries seems irrevelant. The British Empire (in general the Europeans) tried to copy strongly the Chinese model - a very lasting model - created over a long stretch of time since the great floods, yet the English could only stayed the best for 100 years. Its archilles heels can be discussed.

The Japanese model is not really worth emulating, the nation is very self centred and a bit of obsessive in nature especially in the area of balance of trade. However as the situation at present exist, its particular obsessiveness is still acceptable to the world!

Cheerios!

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Post time 2005-2-3 22:17:28 |Display all floors

Hello ,Niulaoye

Nice text.

and 4/3rd line from bottom..

>>>...I am not here to defend for Chinese civilization,...<<<

Hey, ...:--)))))))))))))))

AndyDob

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Post time 2005-2-4 16:19:44 |Display all floors

The dead Chinese Civilisation?

I don't know what it means that a civilization is dead or not.  However, I have a point to share with all.

A nation with a long lasting identity should be one that is tolerant to ideas different from the mainstream.

A nation is tolerant or not is not genetic.  A nation is led to be tolerant or not by its leaders generations after generations.  

Try to go to any online forums hosted in Chinese language in mainland China, and try to touch any topics regarding a foreigner (especially a Japanese) that is treated unfairly in China, and analyse your replies, you will find the answer whether Chinese is a nation with tolerance or not.  I have personally tried out and 99% of the answers assumed that the reason that a foreigner is treated badly is his own fault.  If you are a Japanese, 99% of the answers said that you deserved it and even if it is not right, it is good!  That's the mainstream opinion.  If you try to defend the foreigner, as a Chinese, or disguised as a Chinese, you will receive many insults and some smart ones will recognize immediately that you are a damn foreigner or a "little Japanese" as they call.

The reason for this hatred might point to the wars happend in the past 150 years.  People cannot forget.  People are not led to forgive.  

China's westernization is only limited to economic and corporate arena, even though you will find many more Chinese people start speaking western languages and using westernized names when they don't have to.  

Any westernizations in the ideaology field are condemned.  People speak western languages or use westernized names when considered "not necessary" are considered to be more of a "showing off" rather than to be "international".

I don't know whether this will lead to the death of the Chinese civilization but regard it to be narrowing.

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Post time 2005-2-5 13:55:03 |Display all floors

Nobias

You did came up with an interesting point, but unfortunately I cannot agree with you.

Your statement that ‘a nation with a long lasting identity should be one that is tolerant to ideas different from the mainstream’ is correct. But the supporting you given for Chinese lacking tolerant to ideas different from the mainstream is not correct.

There is a Chinese proverb ‘don’t let one leaf to cover your eye’.

The support you given in your text are:
Try to go to any online forums hosted in Chinese language….
It appear you can master Chinese quite well (if you are not a Chinese yourself), but I would like to draw your attention that, most participated in online forums are younger, relatively more educated and well to do Chinese. These are relatively less matured group, and with bias of some objection to the government policy. Then your observation is leading you to a wrong direction to think they are representing the mainstream.

Then on your issue of 99%, the point is, you can have different opinion on certain facts, but if your opinion is beyond the public standard between right and wrong, then you surely get criticizes from others. For instance, 99% of us will conclude rubbing a bank is wrong, and needed to be condemned. If you are among the 1% saying the robber is right (unless you are hired as the defendant lawyer), you surely eyed by others as something wrong in your mind.

I do not see many foreigners in China are treated unfairly. Most of them we treated as guest and have higher standard then Chinese. Nobias, I feel you are hinting to the Xian University case which I myself consider the students were overacted. But it is not necessary to support your ‘no tolerant’ argument. Chinese hatred to Japanese is having a much deeper background.

Chinese are willing to learn from others. Your statement ‘any westernizations in the ideaology field are condemned’ is not true. You are talking of Chinese speak western languages or use westernized names, I can tell you this is nothing to do with westernization.

Think about it, if British communicate between themselves in Chinese, or French talking with each other in Korean, do you think it is normal and do you think them will not be see as something strange by their countrymen. Chinese, especially those who can merely speak a few words in English, talked to other Chinese in western languages, to be seen as ‘show off’ by fellow Chinese, are very logical. I would like to point out further, our Chairman Jiang is fluoresce in western language, I was much appreciate for his speech to Argentina Parliament, in which he used Spanish for 90 minutes. But many friends of mine hade criticized and see it as a ‘show off’.

About some Chinese using westernized name, if it is not as a convenient in order to deal with foreigners, it is just for fun, or to make he or she different from others. I have seen people using names which they have no idea at all, such as ‘money’, ‘hunter’, ‘beer’ and ‘sea strong’.

p.s.
Andy, thank you for you pointing out my mistake on using the sentence >>>...I am not here to defend for Chinese civilization,...<<< . I mean ‘I am not here to give excuses to defence…’

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Post time 2005-2-5 22:33:17 |Display all floors

Why "Japanese" view?

"Why are the nations which inherited the Judaic-Graec-Roman traditions (Westerrn) are respectful of and thankful to their civilization’s core states like Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc, while the nations that are heavily influenced by the Chinese civilization turn against China?"

I am a volunteer to point out simple information errors.

Topic name should be
  "The Asian view of the Chinese Civilization."

General answer (wanted by the first writer):
"There are cultural inferiorities in Asia compared with Europe.
Because the basis of modernization has been from Europe."

My answer:
Human beings do not have perfect physics still yet.
The last historical important competition is starting now peacefully.
After completed by Asians, there will be no cultural inferiorities.

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Post time 2005-2-16 16:56:16 |Display all floors

newlaoye

1) regarding your comments that the online forum users are younger people with better education and they cannot represent the main stream.  I feel you might be right when talking about number of people in the nation.  However, I might be right when talking about those who care about such discussions as sino-japanese relations and alike and these people are the relevant ones in our context.

2) about 99% issue.  If you compare my opinion that foreigners are treated unfairly even if they did not do anything wrong in the first place, to a bank robbery case, then it is a perfect proof that you are one of the 99% that I am talking about, because assumes that what foreigners do in the first place is comparable to bank robbing.  

3) I agree that 2 Americans talking in Spanish will be considered "showing off" by their own people, but what I was talking about was when a Chinese just returns from America and is not extremely fluent with his native language in some words such as "impressive", "Internet", "derivative", "significant", "capitalise", "management buy-ins and management buy-outs", and etc. uses English words in his sentences which mostly are in Chinese, is considered as "showing off".  I consider myself quite good at Chinese language, but I find it very difficult to find appropriate Chinese translations for these words myself.  Of course, I can find translations for each of such words from dictionaries, but I feel that they are quite awkward translations.

You don't see many cases when foreigners are treated unfairly because you are a Chinese in China.  If you are a foreigner who has traveled to many places around the world, trust me, China is one of the most hostile countries towards foreigners.  Of course, I also recognize that sometimes one has a lot of advantages being a foreigner in China, but such advantages usually have a secondary interest, such as the foreigner might spend more money, or the foreigner might become a friend to sponsor a family member to go abroad, or that the foreigner might offer a work opportunity, or etc.

Here I am not saying 100% times is like this, but a lot of times.

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