Author: shanhuang

A nation bickering about smoking while Iraq burns [Copy link] 中文

Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2004-11-27 20:28:44 |Display all floors

Ms karenb, I really don't care!

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Post time 2004-11-28 02:55:39 |Display all floors

A very timely topic for discussion, Shan Huang

I wrote a post just now, but forgot to copy it before uploading, and now it's gone.

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2004-11-28 03:52:33 |Display all floors

Bravo !

The whole thing of Iraq is a fiasco of US Foreign policy in the Middle East and showed inconsistencies of different Republican Administration towards Saddam Hussein.

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Post time 2004-11-28 03:56:19 |Display all floors

Thanks wchao...

And try to write on a text editor or be quick enough to hit the "stop" if you write on CD's little window before losing what you write....

It happened to me a few times too.

CD really should do something about it to improve.

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Post time 2004-11-28 04:11:18 |Display all floors

selrahc, you definitely brought in lots of sharp ideas !!

Thanks for your many contributions on my threads as well as in this forum.

I do hope CD won't delete you as they did with thestud.

Happy posting !

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Post time 2004-11-28 08:41:26 |Display all floors

Civilian deaths

Shan, based on your own pasting above, it is clear, as I said before, that the Lancet figures are based on estimates, and not on actual figures.  As you pointed out, they surveyed 35 homes or so in 30 neighborhoods, and then multiplied those figures for the whole nation.  Well, that might be accurate or it might not.  If, for instance, we were to take the number of murders that occurred in New York City, and multiply that for an estimate of the rest of New York State, we would get a grossly skewed figure.  I lived in the city of Binghamton for 5 years, and during that time we only had about 7 murders.

On the other hand, the Iraq Body Count is based their figures on actually verified deaths -- not by the U.S. Army, but by Iraqi official bodies -- such as hospital records, morgue records, occasionally media reports, and also the counts given by the regular people of their familes.  But what they did not do (and what Lancet did do) is take the figures for one town, and assume that that was true for the rest of Iraq.

The Iraq Body Count also gives the figures for deaths caused by each of the military actions -- such as 200 killed by cluster bombs.  They have a table on their website that lists all that.  

Now, probably, the true number is somewhere between the Lancet figure and the Iraq Body Count figure.  At any rate, I think we can all agree that, whatever the figures, they are far too high.

We should remember that a large number of those civilian deaths caused by coalition forces were the result of Saddam using his own people as human shields (he did this with the British citizens and other foreigners in the 1991 war, but most of them had left the country by time this last war started).  He purposely placed his military arsenal in highly populated civilian neighborhoods.  

But Shan, I think it is wrong for you to assume that I have no concern for those people simply because I pointed out the atrocities of Saddam prior to the war.   I was concerned for their welfare before (while you were apparently in blissful ignorance of their conditions), and I am still concerned now.  In fact, I remember feeling severe apprehension in the months prior to the war, and terrible sorrow at the time the invasion began.

And yes, I'm well aware of the hand that both American and Britain (and don't forget, China) had in aiding and abetting Saddam in the  Iran/Iraq conflict years from the late 70's through the 80's.  America had a grudge against Iran because they'd taken a number of our embassy people hostage in the Ayatollah Khomeni takeover of the country.

Wchao, perhaps your posting will appear once the moderators review it.  For some reason, they seem to be giving closer scrutiny to Middle East postings these days.

Serlarc,  I always like what you have to say on politics, so best stick around up here, and stay out of the relationships postings (I think they're too tempting for you!)

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Post time 2004-11-28 11:05:14 |Display all floors

Karenb: More than 100,000 civilian died of the War and half of them were women/c

You said

“As you pointed out, they surveyed 35 homes or so in 30 neighborhoods, and then multiplied those figures for the whole nation.” --Karenb

Could you please read the John Hopkins post or my “paste” again? It said they “selected 33 neighborhoods of 30 homes from across Iraq” and they interviewed “Over 7,800 Iraqis”, please don’t leave “across Iraq” out in your sentence. This is critically important, because it is totally different than taking a small sample from a LOCAL region then multiply to a larger area as you implied. There is a HUGE difference from a scientific/statistic point of view!! Do you understand the difference?? For the same token, your neighbor story is too few to be statistically valid. Do you understand ??

The Iraqi Body Count site has been there for a long time. They don’t have a systematic capability or way to search every dead body in this vast nation in a war torn condition. And their counting far from complete, and that’s why there is a need for Lancet Report. Do you think the three academic institutions, two of them are world famous, involved in this survey are so dumb that they don’t know there is such a web site called “Iraqi Body Count”?? Why they feel a pressing need to risk their lives to conduct such survey??  

Again, this survey is by far the most reliable data coming out unless you can provide anything more recent, more reliable.

Last time you claimed that Lancet survey included combatants, now you switched to say that “We should remember that a large number of those civilian deaths caused by coalition forces were the result of Saddam using his own people as human shields”.

I am sorry, where did you get this information on this Iraq war?? Any proof ?? To my knowledge Saddam’s army disappeared when coalition forces went to Baghdad, where were the HUMAN SHIELD this time? Can you point it out??  

By the way, are you saying China played a same role, to the same extent, as US played during the Iran-Iraq war ?? now can we see she/he talking Iran taking US hostages without mentioning why they did so??

Karenb, I have debated with you on three different topics recently. 1) The mideast conflict issues on your thread, you totaly sided with Z-theory; 2) “Report: US marine kills wounded Iraqis” on my thread, you strongly defended the soldier; 3) This thread and we can see how you present your ideas. It is these debates provide me the reasons why I say “I am sorry, you just seem to be one of those Americans who are unable to care about others’ pain but your self”.

I feel I would say it again here.

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