Author: shanhuang

A nation bickering about smoking while Iraq burns [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2004-11-27 18:36:54 |Display all floors

No correction warranted, Karenb

[Well, yes, Shan, I was referring in my post above to the actions of particular insurgents in recent months -- which, by the way, I do NOT think represent the rest of the Iraqi people. I think most Iraqis are every bit as horrified by these actions as we are.] -- Karenb

That’s well accepted. And that’s exactly the base that I said that “those terrible things didn’t happen before. Now move on to the "No correction warranted" part.

For the long list of killings during Saddam’s years, I don’t think it can justify a bit that this current Iraq war is NOT illegal. That’s the bottom line, not to mention what kind of LOVE turn to HATE affairs the US played with Saddam in those years. You also omit the historical timeline and context when talking about it. But I will not go into the details since it distract my initial topic. I will just show one picture below to let readers know it was NOT as simple as you described. And I don’t agree with your way of talking about history.

Karenb, I quoted the number, 100,000, of civilian death exactly from Lancet survey, the most comprehensive one so far measured in anyway, and this was produced by the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Columbia University School of Nursing and Al-Mustansiriya University in Baghdad, far more consistent than the “Iraq Body Count” which has NO systematic way to collect the figures. In this survey, they not only delivered the survey results but also proved civilian death can be counted (unlike US government/military’s claim).

How ironic that you, Karenb, are claiming that “less than half of those civilian casualties were at the hands of US troops. The majority of the deaths are the result of Iraqi on Iraqi violence” ???

Is this true? The US and the world media has clearly been counting every Iraqis or Americans who died of car bombing and killing by either “Iraqis” or “foreigners”, people clearly know how many car bombs exploded, and each time how many died of it, or how many killed by guns, adding together, far fewer than 50,000, not even, let’s just take a LAREGE number, say 4000. But how many Iraqi civilians just ONE American cluster bomb killed? How many houses it destroyed? When an entire family perished they couldn’t even go to “Iraq Body Count” to claim death!
And US government/military simply refuses to give the civilian death number by saying “We don’t count civilian death.” Can we smell something fishy here? They don’t want people know the terribly alarmingly large number of civilian death! Yes, it is difficult to find every dead body, but you must do your best to count them and that’s exactly what Lancet Group did.

I am sorry to say that, Karenb, you just seem to be one of those Americans who are unable to care about others’ pain but your self. Don’t you think your arguments are so out of the line?

In fact, both Lancet group and John Hopkins University politically are quite conservative. And in fact again it has been pointed out that those figures are conservative too. They clearly stated that the numbers given (100,000) ARE mostly civilians killed by the coalition forces, and half of them, 50,000, are WOMEN and CHILDREN.

You need to correct yourself and do a self-examination.

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Post time 2004-11-27 18:52:29 |Display all floors

100,000 Iraqi Civilians died of Coalition forces, 50,000 are women and children

This does NOT include the death as a result of the recent Fallujah fight. Here is the Press release from John Hopkins University of US about the Lancet Report I quoted earlier.

----------------

October 28, 2004

Iraqi Civilian Deaths Increase Dramatically After Invasion

Civilian deaths have risen dramatically in Iraq since the country was invaded in March 2003, according to a survey conducted by researchers from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Columbia University School of Nursing and Al-Mustansiriya University in Baghdad. The researchers found that the majority of deaths were attributed to violence, which were primarily the result of military actions by Coalition forces. Most of those killed by Coalition forces were women and children. However, the researchers stressed that they found no evidence of improper conduct by the Coalition soldiers. [of course, they don't consider the war is illegal, this is an American university after all.]

The survey is the first countrywide attempt to calculate the number of civilian deaths in Iraq since the war began. The United States military does not keep records on civilian deaths and record keeping by the Iraq Ministry of Health is limited. The study is published in the October 29, 2004, online edition of The Lancet.

“Our findings need to be independently verified with a larger sample group. However, I think our survey demonstrates the importance of collecting civilian casualty information during a war and that it can be done,” said lead author Les Roberts, PhD, an associate with the Bloomberg School of Public Health’s Center for International Emergency, Disaster and Refugee Studies.

The researchers conducted their survey in September 2004. They randomly selected 33 neighborhoods of 30 homes from across Iraq and interviewed the residents about the number and ages of the people living in each home. Over 7,800 Iraqis were included. Residents were questioned about the number of births and deaths that occurred in the household since January 2002. Information was also collected about the causes and circumstances of each death. When possible, the deaths were verified with a death certificate or other documentation.

The researchers compared the mortality rate among civilians in Iraq during the 14.6 months prior to the March 2003 invasion with the 17.8 month period following the invasion. The sample group reported 46 deaths prior to the March 2003 and 142 deaths following the invasion. The results were calculated twice, both with and without information from the city of Falluja. The researchers felt the excessive violence from combat in Falluja could skew the overall mortality rates. Excluding information from Falluja, they estimate that 100,000 more Iraqis died than would have been expected had the invasion not occurred. Eighty-four percent of the deaths were reported to be caused by the actions of Coalition forces and 95 percent of those deaths were due to air strikes and artillery.

“There is a real necessity for accurate monitoring of civilian deaths during combat situations. Otherwise it is impossible to know the extent of the problems civilians may be facing or how to protect them,” explained study co-author Gilbert Burnham, MD, associate professor of International Health at the Bloomberg School of Public Health and director of the Center for International, Disaster and Refugee Studies.

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Post time 2004-11-27 19:14:41 |Display all floors

The US-Saddam LOVE to HATE affair

The affair is not as simple as Karenb thought, but I am not going into too much details here since it's too far off the initial topic. Just one picture and one thing to mention that US was deeply involved in the bloody Iran-Iraq war and Henry Kissinger said when the war ended -- It's too bad, they couldn't kill each other more. So readers do your own research.

Below is a hand shaking picture between Saddam Hussein and current US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in the mid-1980s. Rumsfeld was sent by the Reagan administration to Iraq.
20041127191441a1db.jpg

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Post time 2004-11-27 19:46:23 |Display all floors

Kstanb, are you sleep talking ?

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

You took my paragraph apart, you took my sentence apart. Are you going to take my words apart too?

Sorry, you are disqualified.

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Post time 2004-11-27 20:13:08 |Display all floors

Reply to kstanb: A comment on kstanb's comment on "A thought on karenb's comment

<<<It is very very SAD to see US troops have to kill 100,000 civilians and destroy a country to bring “freedom” and “democracy” to other nations,
......Shan, we did not need to ok? It was a plane that was used. The military had more choices, I will not get too far into that. I can think about Japan though! We did not have to Nuke Japan either, we was winning the war with them. Yes we have choices! We could of fought that war for many, many more years! War is sooooo sad!>>>

  Truman ordered to drop two nuclear bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasake because he wanted Stalin to back off during the meeting at Potsdam.  He used Japan as an example because he didn't want to fight the red army during that time.

  Check your facts!

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Post time 2004-11-27 20:13:25 |Display all floors

Karenb, Who is Kanyuek?

I don't know him/her !

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Post time 2004-11-27 20:25:20 |Display all floors

Reply to selrahc: We will NEVER know the truth how many civilians died in Iraq !

Changing the Iraqi infrastructure that's all without using nuke.  Look at Japan, the whole Tojo administration was more or less hanged.  Hirohito was spared due to McArthur intervention.  After that, Japan worshipped the US.

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