Author: Grace222

Chinese university student expelled over insulting China   [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2018-10-11 14:01:18 |Display all floors
Jaaja Post time: 2018-10-11 12:44
Now we are getting somewhere. Your attempts to address that specific issue came in so many posts ...

Your explanation of what had happened is plausible, and so I accept it without prejudice.

The fact that the essay was truncated due to the filters was beyond anybody's control, and so I can understand why you thought the boldfaced passage about Native Americans was directed at you.  It wasn't at all.  That "YOU" meant anybody, and not YOU specifically.  

So you ended up defending yourself by saying you had gone out with someone who had Native American ancestry.  I can see how that could be a misunderstanding.

Thank you for your explanation and keep up the good work.

Glad to have had this conversation with you.

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Post time 2018-10-11 17:02:39 |Display all floors
wchao37 Post time: 2018-10-11 14:01
Your explanation of what had happened is plausible, and so I accept it without prejudice.

The fac ...
so I can understand why you thought the boldfaced passage about Native Americans was directed at you.  It wasn't at all.  That "YOU" meant anybody, and not YOU specifically.


I understood that from the very beginning. I took the opportunity to represent myself as one example of the whole collective who has heard about Native American civilizations.

Basically a first hand account of what you tried to deny existing, in your attempt to showcase Chinese civilization as superior to Native American civilizations. Which, by the way, I am not necessarily denying - but I am again only talking about the civilization, not the current country.

I really don't know how many pages the whole Mayan, Aztec, and other civillizations in South America for example, get in Chinese primary school text books. They are quite well known in west, often much better than Chinese.

Also, whilst we are discussing the possibility to separate a country from the civilization that it is based on, consider this:

China's history under CPC, pretty much the whole first half of it, is something that the leadership would prefer to bury as deep as it can. This is in response to one of your earlier claims, that Native American civilizations have lost their representatives, and therefore can only be studied by digging up old bones an dwellings.

Well, situation seems pretty much the same with China's history under CPC. The little critical history there is studied, occurs mainly outside China. If the early South American civilizations had survived and adopted similar censoring and propagandizing approach to their own history, there would be much less that we'd know about them today.

As for historical account of Chinese civilization, ethnic Chinese diaspora around the world is luckily so large and well established, that for this overall history of the civilization the world really does not need to rely on strictly Chinese sources. It is only that part of fairly recent history, of which much remains in shadow.

In this perspective, it is the Chinese government that is clearly separating the country's history from the history of the civilization. That alone can be a cause for identity crisis for some Chinese youth. They wonder "why does my country need to do this - is my country so bad?".

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Post time 2018-10-12 16:16:31 |Display all floors
Jaaja Post time: 2018-10-11 17:02
I understood that from the very beginning. I took the opportunity to represent myself as one exa ...
Basically a first hand account of what you tried to deny existing, in your attempt to showcase Chinese civilization as superior to Native American civilizations. Which, by the way, I am not necessarily denying - but I am again only talking about the civilization, not the current country.


I think you drank too much Maotai while reading my posts.  I said nothing of the sort.  In fact, I am a defender of what's left of the Native American civilization.

As to the rest, I think CD readers are smart enough to decide for themselves.

Your paragraphs such as the following show that you are still caught in the web of self-doubt, which I believe is entirely unnecessary.  Despite a few flies in the room, the house is clean and we are doing fine.  I'll guarantee that this cannot be said of any other big country in our contemporary world.

In this perspective, it is the Chinese government that is clearly separating the country's history from the history of the civilization. That alone can be a cause for identity crisis for some Chinese youth. They wonder "why does my country need to do this - is my country so bad?".

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Post time 2018-10-12 20:53:16 |Display all floors
wchao37 Post time: 2018-10-12 16:16
I think you drank too much Maotai while reading my posts.  I said nothing of the sort.  In fact, ...

You did say this: "Why it is that you've never heard about the splendid civilization of the Native American tribal societies? "

I try to fix this misconception. In the west we have heard about them, and in most cases more than we have of the Chinese civilization. It is hardly our fault, if Chinese are less educated on the matter.

Despite a few flies in the room, the house is clean and we are doing fine.


Speaking of flies, that's what flies in any random dumpster would say as well. It takes someone who is not a fly to see that.

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Post time 2018-10-12 22:13:03 |Display all floors
wchao37 Post time: 2018-10-12 16:16
I think you drank too much Maotai while reading my posts.  I said nothing of the sort.  In fact, ...
we are doing fine.  I'll guarantee that this cannot be said of any other big country in our contemporary world.


I'll continue on the topic of civilization vs. country (which you argue can not be separated from one another) in context of OP specifically.

Individuals like this Chinese kid, and numerours others within and outside of PRC are part of the Chinese civilization whether they support PRC government or not. Even you cannot deny that - doing so would mean that the country is indeed separate from the civilization.

To kick someone out of university for whatever reason, is therefore a loss to the Chinese civilization. Whether they loved the country or not, they would still contribute to Chinese civilization, even if it was in Taiwan, USA or elsewhere. In best case scenario, they would stay in the mainland and use their energy positively to improve the country, as well as the civilization. Who knows how many bridges, high speed rails, or whatever this person would have engineered.

But what happens here, is that you only make things worse. You feed to the negative opinion of the country both inside and out of China, and not the least in this specific kid's mind. It's like China is digging it's own grave, like it has so many times before under CPC. This is cultural revolution once again, but this time targetting the students instead of teachers - they are already indoctrinated.

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Post time 2018-10-13 02:32:48 |Display all floors
You did say this: "Why it is that you've never heard about the splendid civilization of the Native American tribal societies? "

I try to fix this misconception. In the west we have heard about them, and in most cases more than we have of the Chinese civilization. It is hardly our fault, if Chinese are less educated on the matter.


Nope, I don't think so.  I believe the misconception is your interpretation of the above quoted passage.

The emblems of civilizations include foremost a written language, which the Native Americans would have been able to use had the majority of them not been physically exterminated, just as the survival of the civilizations of many minority tribes in China wouldn't have been possible if the Chinese government had not used phonetic principles to format written languages for them in the 1950-60s.  

Viewed in this light, I believe we have a true misunderstanding here.  Of course there are full libraries of books about the Native Americans, but they are all written in English or non-Native-American languages translated from English which totally distorted Native American cultural heritages and civilizations.  

Let me ask you a simple question --- do you think you would have been able to understand Shakespeare's works in their entirety had there been no survival of the written English language or very few English speakers (like after a nuclear war)?.  You might think you can read a book written in Russian about Shakespeare and fully understand the playwright, but you really can't.

If English exists no more and very few people speak English, no one would be able to fully appreciate Shakespeare's works because the physical carrier won't be there any more, and no matter how well his works are translated into Russian or Japanese, the original flavor of his works would have been lost forever.

For instance, you can't translate "reaching to the Welkin's cheek" in the play "Tempest" verbatim into Russian and expect readers to understand what's going on if the English people and their language have been exterminated.

Likewise, since the majority of the Native Americans have been exterminated physically there are too few speakers to meet the quantitative requirement of inventing a phonetic language for them -- as China had done for its minority peoples since the Revolution in 1949.  

The Chinese government actually devised written phonetic languages for these minorities so that their civilizations could continue unabated represented by a written form and not just an oral tradition.  Very few if any other national government ever did that for its minorities.  

That's why a civilization like China's -- with a Weltanchauung or world outlook that emphasized shared humanity of all the world's nations -- could envision a future world  in which every human inhabitant of our global community has equal rights and shared dignities irrespective of race, religion, culture or national origin.

In contrast, the White Man exterminated the "Indians" now called Native Americans and forced all their children to attend English schools where the medium of communication was in English only -- both written and oral especially in the boarding schools -- thus essentially wiped out their cultural heritage and their civilization.  They NEVER endeavored to devise even one phonetic-based written language for these folks.  

So even though there are books written in English about these folks, their civilization hasn't survived since by definition there is no such thing called civilization without the physical carrier's own written language.  If the number of survivors were sufficiently large while the indigenous traditions were still vibrant and fresh in people's minds, a written form would have been developed.

In fact, please allow me to remind you that there wouldn't have been a truly written record of Egyptian civilization had there been no Egyptian hieroglyphics, no matter how many books in French were written for them after Napoleon invaded Egypt and discovered the Rosetta Stone in 1799.

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Post time 2018-10-13 02:44:03 |Display all floors
Speaking of flies, that's what flies in any random dumpster would say as well. It takes someone who is not a fly to see that.


So you think you are that fly looking at human society, just as Chinese philosopher Zhuang Zi's epic reference to his contention that the butterfly in his dream was dreaming about Zhuang Zi himself?

You are welcome to go on dreaming but most Chinese know what a fly looks like when they see it.

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