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No Other Two Countries Have Shared a Common History and Sovereignty for So Long. [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2015-4-9 13:45:51 |Display all floors
One third of Vietnam's top echelon of government are in China today, visiting with Xi Jinping and Li Keqiang, as well as China's top leaders, over improving their ties, as old friends, old neighbors, and forgotten by Western-educated historians, old brothers and sisters, because for over one thousand years, Annam, now called Vietnam, was very much a part of China, with Vietnamese enjoying all the rights and privileges of Chinese citizens, which explains why there has been such hurt and sadness on both sides whenever a dispute arises over fishing and mining rights in islands and seas that the Vietnamese have plied for more than a thousand years, not as guests or visitors, but as true heirs and children of China.

Independence should lead to a win-win situation for both sides, with mutual respect, with joy, and with peace, but in the case of Vietnam, it has been such a part of China for such a long time that its independence was felt in China more like the loss of a foot or a hand, and for Vietnam, like the loss of a body.

We should respect the independence of Vietnam, no doubt, because that is the choice of its people, but both sides should think about why this separation has been so painful, to this day, because they really could not afford to live without the other, being once part of a whole.

Guangzhou, the third largest city of China, used to be the capital of Nan Yue, that included Annam or Vietnam, and most Vietnamese have Cantonese blood flowing in their veins even if their mind is unaware and oblivious of the source of their own make-up.  Proverbs of China carry as much, if not greater weight in Vietnam, of today as before.  So, now in the ambience of bright lanterns and colorful dresses, it is time for the leaders of Vietnam and China to visit the spring of their common culture, and forget the artificial Western alphabet that was used to indoctrinate five generations of Vietnamese that they are not really Chinese, and think of the five hundred generations before them, when it was otherwise.

Before we drink the Mao Tai to toast each other long life, prosperity, and many offsprings, let us first take a sip of the fresh water that flows in the Mekong, as it comes from the mountains of Yunnan, past Li Jiang where Genghis Khan stopped to sip from its fresh springs, and remember what the ancients have left as a legacy to this generation.


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Post time 2015-4-10 06:12:17 |Display all floors
seneca Post time: 2015-4-9 21:29
What nonsense!

After China grasped beyond its borders south of today's Hunan province and militar ...

Reluctantly, unwillingly, forcibly Old Snake Seneca had to admit that in fact, Vietnam was once a part of China, and indeed not just under Zhao Tu, but actually for more than a thousand years, sharing its maritime resources as Chinese, not as foreigners.

Citizenship as such, did not exist in the ages past, based on paperwork, which would be a laughable joke.  If you speak in a dialect of China, live in a part of China, and was born in a part of China, attested to by the local village elder or magistrate, you are a Chinese.  Simple and practical.  It confers on you the right to make a livelihood in China like everyone else.  Exceptions were when the government exacts a Salt Tax, then making salt requires a permit, which in turn requires payment of a tax, which applies to everyone.

That was how the ancients lived.  And they were for the most part, right.  It is when Western countries invaded foreign lands, and wish to separate their own citizens from their colonial serfs that they bring back to serve as their servants, that some kind of paperwork is needed to deny their serfs the rights of their original citizens.  Slavery, and colonialism, neither of which were practiced by China, are the basis for your need for paperwork.  And of course, now that the whole world uses paperwork, China has to oblige or its land and resources would be Shanghaied by these pirates.

So, it is, the truth cannot be erased by indoctrinating five generations of Vietnamese that their ancestors were never Chinese.  Even a colonial diehard like Seneca has to grudgingly admit they forced the Vietnamese to adopt an alien alphabet and call it native.  Ho Chi Minh spoke and wrote fluent Chinese, and in fact, his name is by all measures and criteria, a Chinese name, that he always signed in Chinese characters.

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Post time 2015-4-10 08:17:26 |Display all floors

No, China does not wish Vietnam to become a part of China all over again.  That would be too complicated.  All China wants, and all Vietnam wants, is for the two separate and independent countries to live in peace, sharing resources their ancestors used to share under one roof, but having two roofs does not mean they cannot share the same courtyard, or the surrounding gardens.  This is simpler and more practical.

In 207 BC, Zhao Tuo, a general of the Qin emperor annexed Annam to Nan Yue (which included parts of Yunnan, Guangxi and Guangdong) and established the capital of all these lands in Guangzhou.  In 111 BC, the Nan Yue kingdom, already ruled by Chinese generals and magistrates, was defeated by the Han Dynasty which succeeded the Qin Dynasty.  For more than a thousand years, Nan Yue, that included An Nam, or Vietnam, was under Chinese sovereignty, up until 938 AD when Vietnamese generals defeated the Chinese forces, but even so, in the next one thousand years, some Vietnamese dynasties allied themselves with China, off and on.

The real traumatic events in Vietnam occurred when the French invaded Vietnam using modern firearms, from 1859 to 1885, using Saigon as their base, with forced indoctrination of the Vietnamese, who were then Buddhist in religion, Confucian in philosophy, and Chinese in culture, to adopt Catholicism and a Western alphabet, which deviated from the norm of Western pronunciation to such an extent that only Vietnamese can translate their Westernized words into Chinese pronunciations. One such example is the most popular surname in Vietnam, being written as Nguyen, but which is pronounced in the old traditional Chinese dialect of Nanyue as "Yun" or "Win (to appease the Western literati), which in Mandarin or Putonghua is pronounced as "Yuan".  It can be seen from a phonetic analysis of Vietnamese words that they are actually still being spoken like a Chinese dialect, even though their French rulers have assigned a very different Western alphabet combination for them that failed to be accepted by the public.  So, which is the native language of Vietnam?  The spoken Vietnamese or the French written alphabet?  The answer is a clear vote for the spoken or vernacular Vietnamese, as no Vietnamese uses the rules of French or English pronunciation for even their own names.

But, China and Vietnam need not return to the past in order to achieve a common future.  They just have to know the past, without having to return to it.  But this understanding gives them the key to the solution to their historically inherited problems of separation and independent sovereignty.  One possible solution is to establish a system of equal use of resources without demanding identical citizenships in a defined INCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONE, as opposed to the highly divisive (intentional or not) of the Western-based LOS definition of EXCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONE.  This concept of an INCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONE acknowledges there are disputes over the sovereignty over the region in question, with each side claiming absolute sovereignty over the region, but with both sides agreeing to allow a certain number of citizens or ships of the other side to stay and exploit the maritime resources of such an INCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONE (IEZ).  Quantifying the number of persons, ships, or resources taken from an IEZ allows this concept to be flexible enough to be applied to regions claimed by both but which are not equidistant from both, and which have not been equally used traditionally by both.  Quantification also allows a common effort at environmental protection, especially of endangered species, and avoids an exhaustion of maritime resources through overfishing.

So, we can be creative in constructing a hypothetical formula that the share of each country should roughly be equal to:

S = K * (L * P * L/A ) / D^2

S = strength of claim on the exploitable resources of an area in the IEZ of the country in question.
D = distance of that area from the nearest uncontested coastline of the country in question.
L = length of the coastline of the country, measured with rulers of 1 kilometer length.
P = population of the country in question.
A = area of the land mass of the country in question.
K = a coefficient to be determined.

Then, we can inject the factor of environmental protection and resource renewal into the model by first establishing the maximum amount of seafood that can be extracted from a region per year, and next the share of this maximum that each country can take from the region, as follows:

Fv = Fraction due to Vietnam = Sv/(Sv+Sc)*Rmax
Fc = Fraction due to China = Sc/(Sv+Sc)*Rmax

Sv = stregnth of Vietnam's claim
Sc = strength of China's claim
Rmax = maximum amount of maritime resources extractable from the region in question that is environmentally friendly and ecologically sustainable.

Is this the best equation, not really, but it is just one way to start thinking about how to share rather than fight over a sea of resources as two separate independent countries, when politically speaking, there is no way of going back to being simply one country again.  This is the rationale of the European Common Market and the European Union.  Maybe, Vietnam can learn this lesson from France, that gave it its Western alphabet, that where division fails, unity may be the best solution.

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Post time 2015-4-10 09:34:46 |Display all floors
Vietnam has never been part oif China although China invaded it on more than one occasion.

Your hypothetical formulae are more pie in the skey than hypothetical

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Post time 2015-4-10 12:02:56 |Display all floors
This post was edited by abramicus at 2015-4-10 12:21
futsanglung Post time: 2015-4-10 09:34
Vietnam has never been part oif China although China invaded it on more than one occasion.

Your hyp ...

Western-defender, Sir, you are scared of the truth, aren't you?  You have no choice, but to deny it.  Your forcing the Western alphabet on the Vietnamese people was successful, because it was under duress, but only to a degree.  How do you pronounce "Nguyen" in English or French?  Can you?  You can't, because you are not Vietnamese.  They pronounce it like the Chinese.  

Do you know what the Vietnam War was all about to the Vietnamese people?

It was not about kicking out the Chinese "invaders" but about kicking out the Japanese in 1943, who caused a famine that killed 2 million Vietnamese to die of starvation, in a land that is fertile beyond imagination, but whose crops were looted from the hands of their farmers to feed their brutal Japanese rulers (your fav friends of today).  It was called the Viet Minh.  Recognize that name?  They were the ones who then booted out the French, whose pro-Vichy government allowed the Japaneses to enter Vietnam and de facto take it over during WWII, but now that the Japanese had left, the French wanted to resume their "ownership" and "sovereignty" over the Vietnamese "pagans", and the result was Dien Bien Phu.  America was a late comer to the region, egged by the French with promises of great wealth to be had by taking it over, but first, it had to get rid of the people, right?  The Vietnamese are fighters who descended from the Qin Dynasty, and who successfully defeated three Mongol invasions, after they had declared their independence from the Sung Dynasty that had become not only weak but also morally decadent.  Zhao Tuo was a major general of the Qin empire, who remained in Nan Yue rather than submit to the new Han rulers who deposed his original master, Qin Shi Huang.  You can't blame him for being a loyal general to his old emperor to the end, can you?  Great stock, good blood, brave hearts.

All throughout the three enemies that Vietnam booted out, China stood behind Vietnam and sacrificed more than a hundred thousand soldiers dressed as Vietnamese guerrillas and soldiers.  Ho Chi Minh retreated to China when he was being hunted down by his enemies, and General Giap conferred frequently with his Chinese counterparts in planning the defense and recapture of his home land.  So, how can China and Vietnam be natural enemies?  Unless, Western kibitzers infiltrate their ranks to insist they are, and must be, even if they had been more often friends in the past.  The tragedy of the boat people, who were mostly of Chinese stock, is something that Vietnam must reflect upon, as something that must never happen again.  China swept it under the rug, for auld lang sayne.  But it was a moral, religious and humanitarian tragedy of historic proportions, regardless of how it may have been ideologically whitewashed and religiously reinterpreted.

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Post time 2015-4-10 12:18:13 |Display all floors
abramicus Post time: 2015-4-10 12:02
Western-defender, Sir, you are scared of the truth, aren't you?  You have no choice, but to deny i ...

I have never forced anything on the Vietnamese people, certainly not the alphabet ( strange that the alphabet has been accepted by China for pinyin and computing as that is the only way it can work, a keypad with 1500 plus keys just would not work ).

What has pronouncing Nguyen got to do with your OP and the fact that Vietnam was invaded by its neighbour?

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Post time 2015-4-10 13:00:55 |Display all floors
futsanglung Post time: 2015-4-10 12:18
I have never forced anything on the Vietnamese people, certainly not the alphabet ( strange that t ...

You cannot even pronounce correctly what you taught the Vietnamese to use as their alphabet.  Pathetic.

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