Author: middlekingdo

Why DO Chinese People Hate Taiwanese secessionists?! [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2007-5-7 19:59:50 |Display all floors
Originally posted by mengzhi at 26-4-2007 10:45
Most Taiwanese want to be reunited with the Motherland


I suppose you have an opinion poll that says that, do you? No one would want to think you were making up stories again.
"People are the water, the ruler is the boat; water can carry the boat, but it can also capsize it."

-- Li Shimin (2nd Tang Emperor, "Taizong")

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Post time 2007-5-7 21:14:21 |Display all floors

It is your shot.

My dear mencius,

Welcome back , long time no see . How have you been ? Rehabilitated yet ? Guess not from your first mutterings so far.

I am not sure what " poll " you would like to see. There are just too many to be listed here. The one fact which may be of help, one even you would find it hard to dispute, is that the DPP in the Yuen has a minority quotient of MPs. This is a weird " democracy " because I thought the " majority " is supposed to rule , no ?  So this " poll" does show that the majority of the people do support the reunification ticket , against the DPP independence ticket . Does that count  ? Of course not . You should provide us with your iron clad poll results then to say that the majority wish for independence. Over to you .

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Post time 2007-5-7 23:36:34 |Display all floors

Mengzhi, don't play dumb - it doesn't work

Originally posted by mengzhi at 7-5-2007 13:14
Welcome back , long time no see . How have you been ? Rehabilitated yet ?


No, sorry I'm still free-thinking and committed to democracy.

I am not sure what " poll " you would like to see. There are just too many to be listed here.


I'm talking about opinion polls, polling conducted by various media groups and institutions specifically on single issues. Surely you must be able to come up with an opinion poll published in say a pro-KMT Taiwan newspaper (or indeed the KMT itself) that says a majority of Taiwanese want full unification, yes?

The one fact which may be of help, one even you would find it hard to dispute, is that the DPP in the Yuen has a minority quotient of MPs.


First of all, the KMT doesn't have a majority either. It only forms a slim majority with the PFP.

You know full well that people are elected for multiple reasons, rarely one - especially since the KMT does not say "a vote for us is a vote for unification". Better ties with China, yes - but that isn't unification. The KMT's Ma even said that formal independence was one option open to Taiwan. It's possible to vote KMT yet not want unification, because it couldn't happen without a referendum to change the Constitution.

It's very common for voters to disagree with some policies/attitudes regarding the people they elect. I'm sure Nicholas Sarkozy won votes from people that don't particularly like the US/UK (he is more friendly towards those two countries than Chirac), just as some voters in the UK that didn't like the war in Iraq "held their noses" and voted for Tony Blair to keep the Conservatives out of government in 2005.

But if you want to bring elections into it, there is also the fact that the DPP still forms the government/executive in Taiwan. Not that I think national elections are about independence/unification - bread-and-butter issues always take precedent.

There's also the issue of turnout and votes cast. Even if the KMT and PFP tallies are combined, they still only got 49.68% of the vote (but because of the electoral system, they got slightly more than half the seats between them). With turnout at only 59.16% that suggests only about 29.4% of the electorate voted for the KMT and PFP. Also the DPP actually gained more seats and votes than the KMT, but because their ally the TSU didn't gain as much support as the PFP they couldn't form a majority by themselves.

In contrast turnout for the Presidential election was higher at just over 80%.

[ Last edited by mencius at 2007-5-7 04:01 PM ]
"People are the water, the ruler is the boat; water can carry the boat, but it can also capsize it."

-- Li Shimin (2nd Tang Emperor, "Taizong")

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Post time 2007-5-8 05:01:10 |Display all floors

Just a touch of pregnancy.

Dear mencius,

Time has mellowed you not : indeed you are still entangling yourself so sleakly and easily,it is amazing .

" A touch of pregnancy " keeps cropping up as I read your convoluted, complicated and unconvincing act. The majority faction in the parliament is in opposition ! Twist as you might , turn as you try you are not going to change that , old chap.

This is the perverted and pretend version of democracy. " Rule by the Minority  " variety. My contention still stands. That election had a clear division of a referendum on " independence " and those who rejected that for a '" Reunification " ticket won. That surely is more weighty than all the other polls which you should supply us with . Good luck.

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Post time 2007-5-8 16:18:00 |Display all floors

Mengzhi spins as usual

Originally posted by mengzhi at 7-5-2007 21:01
That election had a clear division of a referendum on " independence " and those who rejected that for a '" Reunification " ticket won. That surely is more weighty than all the other polls which you should supply us with .


Mengzhi, that was not your original point. You tried to claim that a majority of Taiwanese want unification, but you used a poll which did not support that theory because less than half of the electorate (a lot less than half) voted for the Pan-Blues.

You also ignored the fact that the pro-independence side won the Presidential election. So at best you can say opinion in Taiwan is divided - certainly not that a majority want unification. At worst the fact the government selected was Pan-Green shows Taiwanese are more independence-leaning, given Taiwan has a Presidential and not Parliamentary system of government.

[ Last edited by mencius at 2007-5-8 08:27 AM ]
"People are the water, the ruler is the boat; water can carry the boat, but it can also capsize it."

-- Li Shimin (2nd Tang Emperor, "Taizong")

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Post time 2007-5-8 19:34:41 |Display all floors

Too complex to deal with ?

You sure can wrap that tongue of yours around anything you want , can't you ? I  do not wish to get bogged down on this one. I maintain that it looks silly to have a government with less than half of the MPs on your side. Even a president who presides over a majority in parliament being from the opposition parties is surreal and silly.

You look after the future of that has-been Britannia and let us Chinese deal with this minor hiccough over Taiwan.

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Post time 2007-5-8 19:56:26 |Display all floors
Originally posted by mengzhi at 8-5-2007 11:34
I maintain that it looks silly to have a government with less than half of the MPs on your side.


That is unfortunately the result of having a Presidential system of government, in that the executive and legislative can be governed by different parties. That is the current situation in the USA. But that doesn't change the fact that the DPP forms the government.
"People are the water, the ruler is the boat; water can carry the boat, but it can also capsize it."

-- Li Shimin (2nd Tang Emperor, "Taizong")

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