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Title: Are China, US on the way to the final deal? [Print this page]

Author: ceciliazhang    Time: 2019-10-27 15:08:10     Title: Are China, US on the way to the final deal?

Chinese Vice Premier Liu He (L), U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin (C) and Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer [File photo: China Plus]

(CNTV) Chinese Vice Premier Liu He discussed trade issues with U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin in a phone call on Friday.

The two sides addressed key trade issues and agreed to hold another phone conversation in the coming days.

Following the high-level economic and trade consultations on October 10 to 11, the two countries said they made substantial progress in multiple areas including agriculture, intellectual property rights protection, exchange rates, financial services, expansion of trade cooperation, technology transfers and dispute settlements.

Author: GhostBuster    Time: 2019-10-28 08:26:54

US has never been willing to make any deal with China. Reason is US stand to show total form of submission to China.
Truth in US is to hit China on her head hard till she faints out. Unfortunately, US seems to miss with each full force blow but hit its own head harder than expected.
To make matters worst, US laid mines in Hong Kong only to get clowns like Joshua Wong, Dennise Ho and supporters to subject Hong Kong for annual evaluation as free port.
Wonder if these so called democratic freedom fighters really know what harm they inflicted upon Hong Kong before taking action desperately without result that is beyond repair.
Hong Kong education must be going down the drain at break neck speed celebrating it with total destruction of Hong Kong!
Well, Hong Kongers are great to build and destroy at their own hands! MARVELOUS!


Author: 1626548377    Time: 2019-10-29 11:51:34

"Are China, US on the way to the final deal"

My 94 year old grandma got a better chance of getting pregnant than to get a deal with the americans.
Author: YowieChen    Time: 2019-11-2 19:03:22

NO DEAL! Go China , you will come on top.
Author: markwu    Time: 2019-11-3 11:04:49

There is no hope. Tariffs by the US on China will continue. Technology and talent sanctions by the US on China will continue and become permanent. All US agencies will brown-to-black list China entities. The first phase will only be the US does not increase its tariffs on China in exchange for China buying more US agri and energy products plus opening up plus IP mechanism under US duress. The US aim to take local market shares from China's SOEs will increase in pressure. Huawei etc including Meng will not be relieved. Trust deficit will remain. Trade impact on China manufactures will be US duties of about 25% on all China products into 2020 and onwards; the tariff exemption on US importers will max at 20% of applicants in a reducing scale; US sanctions on export of technology via other countries to China will maintain its 20% minimum content ruling. US naval activities in the Pacific will increase. US intermediate range missiles will be installed in two places in Asia. The US will maintain its forces in SKorea and Japan; its intelligence gathering on China will build up in taiwan and queensland; it will leverage Japan, India and Australia to heighten their tripartite arrangement for the US-proxy IndoPacific initiative. The US will press on Brazil, India on trade matters against China, and press on Nato members and Israel on tech matters against China. The US will revive its TPPI in exchange for not tariffing the EC. The US will sell more arms to taiwan, japan and skorea.  The US will print more dollars and weaponize its swift sanction hegemony to sanction China on her energy and trade surplus. China assets in the US will be demanded by the US to be sold else frozen. The US will just use all China IPs on 5G without payment and additionally fund Nokia, Ericsson and Japan businesses. No China tech will be allowed in the US. No android license will be given to China telcos. No China academia will be allowed into any US tech lab or university. No China experts will be allowed on any international tech-standards committee. The US will increase its cyberwarfare, space and arctic races against China. The US will sell only soil-killing GMO agri and fertilizer products to China.

All in one paragraph.
Author: emanreus    Time: 2019-11-4 10:23:42

markwu Post time: 2019-11-3 11:04
There is no hope. Tariffs by the US on China will continue. Technology and talent sanctions by the U ...

re: " No China academia will be allowed into any US tech lab or university"

    NANA FAN, a 14-Year-Old Named America’s Top Young Scientist

Kara Fan Wins Top Prize at 2019 3M Young Scientist Challenge for her Nano-Silver Liquid Bandage Innovation...
   It'll be hard for uncle Sam to keep his advantage without them Young Chinese brains...

Author: markwu    Time: 2019-11-4 18:27:56

emanreus Post time: 2019-11-4 10:23
re: " No China academia will be allowed into any US tech lab or university"

    NANA FAN, a 14-Ye ...

No matter what happens, China's ascent must never stop. She will be the greatest nation this century in the development, application and extension of sciences and technologies for mankind. She will be the first in everyone's mind as the most modern and dynamic nation on earth. She will be the preferred choice for developers of modern tools and techniques to benefit from their commercialization in the fastest and widest manner.
Author: TrumpTwinbro4    Time: 7 DayEarlier

It should be some ongoing process of mutual understanding of different values, cultures or even political/financial systems rather than some 'final deal' outcome.
Author: emanreus    Time: 7 DayEarlier

TrumpTwinbro4 Post time: 2019-11-5 09:45
It should be some ongoing process of mutual understanding of different values, cultures or even poli ...


  Perhaps you care to talk to your Twin brother...

Author: TrumpTwinbro4    Time: 7 DayEarlier

emanreus Post time: 2019-11-5 17:18

  Perhaps you care to talk to your Twin brother...

Thanks for your reply but allow my clarifications about that name - Obviously Trump is a dishonest man who lies a lot;  What I mean is when pointing his fingers at Trump for his controversial & inappropriate behavior in the mirror, someone has always present ed a strong resemblance in quality esp.  personalities between him & Trump.
Author: TrumpTwinbro4    Time: 6 DayEarlier

Sometimes we couldn't help wondering has the world changed to favor dishonest/indecent guys like Trump because of their lousy & talkative skills in persuading people to trust him & follow his minds?!  Bit unfair for those honest & good guys though…
Author: TrumpTwinbro4    Time: 5 DayEarlier

emanreus Post time: 2019-11-4 10:23
re: " No China academia will be allowed into any US tech lab or university"

    NANA FAN, a 14-Ye ...

Author: markwu    Time: 3 DayEarlier

Trump has done it again. Barely have the positive sentiments on the first phase talks settled down, he has denied agreeing to rolling back trade war tariffs on China.

One only wonders three things:

(a) don't his US negotiators represent him? if he never intended them to represent him, why have them talked to China's negotiators? should the latter have to ask the former every time they meet whether the former's words should not be like holding sand in one's hands?

(b) And if they do represent him but the rollback was not agreed, why didn't they say so themselves at the first instance but left it to their boss who came out saying China wanted to do a deal more?, moreover, if they say it now, it only reinforces they are saying it at the prompting of their boss who was not present, and

(c) if he is again playing his bluffy game, is it because he wants to appear tough to show he holds all the cards in trade that he no longer holds against his impending impeachment even when he himself already knows all those cards have the same face (namely, Joaquin Phoenix)?  

Since the matter is very serious for the whole world as shown by how all the world markets uplifted when progress was announced, is he aberrant or plain "ins..."? But then again, that's already the conclusion of the majority of his own countrymen. Except for gordon chang, navarro's sidekick, who wrote another piece today (while still praying his desperate prayer for China to collapse).

Indeed, while Trump's unpredictability is now predictable, that is small consolation for the whole world. Another insider book, now titled A Warning, has come out tarring his administration.

Maybe that explains why the world has grown fatigued by his antics. Even seasoned investment bank analysts who had written extensively on the impacts of Trump's trade wars haven't bothered to highlight his fiasco anymore; they probably have decided it is hard to make sense of mad men's madcaps in order to write measured analyses affecting business sentiments and investments. After all, there is no cure for juvenile potuses. Maybe, in his case, his neural synapses have plaqued. Some Oligomannate from China may provide temporary relief.

Bottomline: what if China rolls back as well everything, now that the ball is back at Trump's feet since he was the one who has disrupted the talks and diminished his own negotiators?  After all, there can be no result if one side is completely rational, sane and wise, and the other side is completely irrational, insane and unwise. The US farmers shouldn't be in a hurry to pop their wine bottles. And come next month, the US treasury may have an early christmas - but at the full expense of the rest of the US population. Fizzzz...

Author: emanreus    Time: 2 DayEarlier 20:20

markwu Post time: 2019-11-9 10:42
Trump has done it again. Barely have the positive sentiments on the first phase talks settled down,  ...

re:   "After all, there can be no result if one side is completely rational, sane and wise, and the other side is completely irrational, insane and unwise. "

   Nokia won 5G contracts valued at CNY15.7 billion ($2.2 billion) from China’s three major operators, just a week after
they launched the next-generation mobile service, with rival Ericsson reported to have also secured deals.

   What a contrast to nations including the US, Australia and Japan which barred Chinese vendors Huawei and ZTE from bidding for 5G contracts.
Author: markwu    Time: Yesterday 16:42


M: What do you think of what emanreus had posted?

W: It's another of many examples of a Chinese characteristic. Humanistic constructiveness for peace and prosperity.

M: Yes, rather than the west's competitive zero-sum plays of "i win only when i make you lose". Namely, destructive, antagonistic, bruising bullying of others such as endorsed by thugs and blackmailers.

W: But some in the west said when they meet a China delegate, they get the impression he only wants to compete.

M: That's because they see the Chinese through their own jaundiced lens.  The Chinese don't compete; they compute. And what the west misperceive as uber-competitiveness is just an energetic desire to improve.  In fact, everything the Chinese people do, and that includes their CCP members as government officials, is to make improvements.

Seen from that angle, which however the west seems to conveniently omit everytime, it would then make sense why the Chinese want to improve themselves and the markets of the world by making improvements to the products introduced to them, furthermore at lower costs, that are to the benefit of consumers throughout the world, especially those suffering from the income disparities exacted and maintained through capitalism without Chinese characteristics.

W: I see your points. As Rodrik had written in his attempt to craft a middle ground between convergence and decoupling, the west should not deny China her economic model.

After all, he argued her industrial policies and state-owned enterprises benefit the world in the aggregate through subsidies whose economic costs are primarily borne at home in order to uplift millions through the very types of industrial employment that the west has already disdained and disclaimed. Which explains today's western hypocrisy of "since i am not doing it, neither shall you".

And let me add, where would the west be today if they themselves had not subsidized their technologies through grants by their military-industrial complexes to their techno-mavericks and research centers?  Oh yes, they who decry China's support for her industries in order to sustain employment of her poor have themselves been subsidizing galore their own inefficient industries.  

In fact, they preceded China in that regard so why the hypocrisy today? Is it because of their mantra of "don't do as i do but do only what i tell you to do"?  Is it because the notion of "state-owned enterprises" in the east has actually and all along been "crony private corporations" in the west?

In the case of the US onto China, that command to follow its rules is coming from a 300-year-old country trying to tell off a 5,000-year civilization and with the presumption of some 'moral' high ground that the west has the sole right to determine how others should conduct themselves to fulfil western wishes whose actions so far had however only resulted in a 2008 global recession with another jitterily creeping up in 2020 once the Obama's employment growth curve ends that was flicked to be used by Trump's propaganda machine.

Moreover, has the US forgotten so quickly how it had sent a treasury delegation to Beijing after 2008 to ask China for help to buy more US treasuries failing which the US dollar would have collapsed, bringing down its economy?  Have Pence and Pompeo, Navarro and Bannon, Cruz and Schumer, Gingrich and Goldberg, Ross and Lighthizer, Haley and a thousand others out of the american wormwood finished their dance of US ingratitude? (well, lineage allowing, Cruz of Cuba and Haley of India excepted, not to forget Trumpf ex-Germany) (or was it, errr, Austria?)

M: Maybe their memory gets erased in the grip of wanting a 'level playing field', as defined by them? But on second thoughts, that itself seems an anomaly. When China opened up under the WTO, she was at ground-zero. Everyone went about in drab suits on bicycles. Today, her peoples are defining the fabrics and fashions of the world and they ride in the latest automobiles, and all have enough to eat.

I am reminded of that story of the 70-year old Hong Kong woman who was battered to death by the japanese invaders just because she wanted to exchange some leaves for a bowl of rice. There were millions of such examples. While all this may be in the past and all those japanese murderers have long turned to non-fertilizing ashes,  there is no resolution for the spirits of those ancestors of the Chinese of today until and unless the Chinese of today can rise and be safe forever from the ravages of foreigners that had brought her down to the ground zero from which she must never ever have to face again.

And i am not talking about nationalistic fervor to fit some state objective. I am only talking about the facts of history that China had faced which the US had never. Maybe it should some, if only to get a real perspective of what others have gone through. Yet again, a 300-year country separated from others by two oceans can't be expected to have much history, for that matter any culture crystallized by hope, ability, will, effort, sacrifice and pain but always - wisdom borne by an incandescent and prescient understanding of the inevitability of time.

So when Trump says China has 'stolen' US jobs and other things, has he even considered the historical perspective which must inform his policy-makers about the one nation on this planet which was numero uno before ravages by foreigners when that nation has the absolute right to rise in accordance with her own mandates, her own timetable, her own processes and wisdom? Does anyone honestly think China will any time soon be abiding by the machinations of western powers like the US so that the other 400 million of her poor will not be gainfully employed to rise and improve their lot?

Author: markwu    Time: Yesterday 16:44

This post was edited by markwu at 2019-11-11 18:00


W: Let me add to what you said. Take the CRRC rail-car manufacturing projects in the US. Lower costs, more modern trains and employment of US rustbelt workers. Yet Trump's government exacted tariffs on the parts, barred those US concerns from tenders, and tarred the railcars as national security risks. One wonders, which component of the train is doing any spying...the wheel, the window or perhaps the toilet seat? In the heat of its hypocrisy, the US administration has executed imperial overreach. Unfortunately for itself inasmuch the whole world, that's the only thing it has been doing these days.

M: What for CRRC and Huawei and so many other China suppliers to the US, so too something else which the US direly needs if only it will move away from its caustic optics on China and towards friendlier trust that China has no bad intentions on anyone. If anything, the US has come to this stage of trying to label China a strategic rival and an existential threat only and only because it wants to deflect attention of its own citizens from its own self-inadequacies in a world that can only sustain growth for everyone on the basis of multilateral cooperation.

Take the situation in California. That marvellous US state is burning to the ground because its PG&E power company has gone too bankrupt to change all those electrical cables that course through the woods which have been catching fire too frequently. If the US had not decided on making any enemy of China in a decoupling movement that Rodrik must have seen by now, then the US could have approached China to ask for investments and joint-venture partnerships to rebuild the entire US infrastructure that is crumbling day by day since the 1950s, and California's forest fires would have been nipped before they conflagrate and burn down the studio for the next Terminator flick.  In fact, if the US wants to redeem itself, it can show the world it can be China's best friend (again?) by inviting China's firefighters to fly over to help Californians put out those fires. And show on US prime time their working together. The following day, the US bourse might sizzle like never before.

Alas, that 1950s period remains the era that is still going on in Trump's vision of what industrial might must mean for the US - the sweaty sinews of blackish coal, burning steel, and the gothamic highrise's out of some batman period piece.

Which leaves to be said -  beyond trade and technology, the root of all losses these days is trust.  Once trust is gone, it is like trying to grab sand in the hand. Heck, you can't even do any deal without trust. And you know what's the western root of that particular root?

W: Could it be the west's Doctrine of Discovery? Power over other nations excused on the expedient of having 'discovered' them so as to 'legalize' the west's colonization of their natives, with legal terms defined in orwellian west-speak in order to gain control of resources like oil and to leverage through a single, exclusive, currency of trade on threat of sanctions by sea, air, land, space, electronics and freezing of your financial assets.

Yes, from that primitive doctrine emerges geopolitical domination. Every single one of the old western empires came, exploited and left, leaving many nations, even big ones, still paying for the damage to both their economies and minds. And that is precisely why nations must always improve themselves.  Come to think of it, China has always been improving herself, furthermore without blaming others. How come the US as some global super power has not been improving itself but has instead been busy blaming others instead and bombing the daylights out of poor peasants in faraway lands? Huh, how come?

Yes, Trump might have been able to arm-twist his own fellowmen suppliers and subcontractors when he was a property developer. Now he wakes up every morning thinking only how to bash China again. Despite so many years living on this planet, it must be from either poor upbringing or poor education or an excess of sodium nitrite preservative in those cheezeburgers, or all of them.

M: Rodrik had also suggested his middle ground idea must be bilaterally settled before engaging China next on the matter of human rights. What do you think?

W: Why can't western experts find out first what are the real facts behind their accusations? USD600 Billion in IP theft? Why quote a scandinavian outfit, long forgotten by now, and how was its methodology tested to have been able to come up with such a ridiculous number? How did that number become total for the world to per year for China? Where are the US sources of research on that - and don't quote the US trade agencies which quoted the foreign source. One million muslims in concentration camps? How about 11,000 in vocational training centres to teach them skills so that they can be gainfully employed and not out on the streets kniving others to death?  Come to think of it, why hasn't any US lawmaker up to today made any comparison on the size and building plans of those 'camps' with the US interrogation centre in Guantanemo Bay where dogs were used to abuse the muslim detainees? What about the CIA interrogation conclaves, located in Eastern Europe only to avoid human rights? What about the size of US jails that pepper every state in that trigger-happy, gunslingering country? You know, a concentration camp to detain a million people must have required a rather large piece of building plan paper. Too big to hide, ignore... Where's it?

M: Bravo. Come to think of it, the nomination of those HK rioters for the next Nobel peace prize would have been hilarious if it was not so insulting to Alfred Nobel himself (besides the committee). Peace on the wings of petrol bombs, tauntings, slashings, burnings and barricades, and fabrications of homicide and rape? But then again, if western inciters can conveniently omit in all their media how the first batch of unarmed soldiers in the bus were burned alive and strung from a bridge in TNM's Beijing, why should anyone anymore be surprised when they can nominate for 'peace' in HK while inciting for war and secession? Is it to indirectly erase the Shanghai communique that recognizes there is only one China by using Hong Kong as a second Taiwan to be declared independent of One China?

W: Yes, i always wondered about that TNM photo taken by the western media. How come they never asked why that man was holding shopping bags in his hands while standing in front of those tanks? And more importantly, why have the same photographers not shown any photo after any 'incident' after the first photo was taken? Maybe because nothing untoward happened after?

So, yes, Rodrik would have known what Mahbubani had said. One, let China decide for herself what she wants to do and when she wants to be more 'democratic'. Though, seeing what has happened in Hong Kong, one guesses China may wisely want to take a bit more time to decide. Democracy these days seems to be divisive, destabilizing and destructive. Imagine, Haley saying Trump is not impeachable because the act of quid pro quo of something scandalous on Trump's Democratic leader in exchange for release of US congressional aid to Ukraine was not, finally, carried out by Ukraine. Semantics has overriden ethics, it seems.

As to being a 'totalitarian regime' such as oft used recklessly by presumably educated commentators in places like Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Financial Times UK and Economist UK, why has none of those commentators commented on how annually 130 million Chinese go out of the country as big-shopper tourists? And all without fail returned home happy. If that's totalitarian, maybe other countries should also get a bit of it. Gimme CGTN's Liu Xin any day!

And, today is 11-11! Happy Shopping on Alibaba, westerners...

Author: markwu    Time: Yesterday 16:46

This post was edited by markwu at 2019-11-11 18:02


M: I'd say aye to that. Did i tell you the other day i actually walked into a Louis Vuitton shop? Picked up a handbag on display. You know, only out of curiosity how something like that could cost such a bomb. It also weighed a hundred times heavier than my humble wallet. (kekekeke). I would have put a lighter to test whether it was real leather...but then, if i had, we won't be having this conversation...since i would be behind bars by now.

Anywayszz..., after i walked out and went to a stall in the mall that sells China-made handbags, i swore i could not distinguish the quality. Same craftsmanship, even better design, fine material too but, of course, much - and much, much - affordable.

It's all about the brand name inside the brain. And that's why i say the world gets great buys buying China-made products. Always. Trump should always remember his wish to Make America Great must start with Buy China First. So that America can do what it does best - sell its technologies to China; also make more action-oriented Hollywood movies.

W: Were you shopping for...errr....errr?

M: You mean 母亲? But of course! Now, i have to ask you after our long conversation today. What do you think China can say to the US that the US should listen carefully to China?

W: (looks faraway for a while). It's not about a deal today, another deal tomorrow. Neither is it about phase one to phase n.

You can have all the best this or that deal in the world but if things later change when both have not established prior respect and equality of each other, then one will try to tilt its power over the other and all those deals will break down again. Progress must however be maintained in a world that yearns for certainty and stability in order to plan, invest and groom.

It's about the relationship that must abide between two superpowers in which one has advanced but remains still locked in a juvenile mindset of its self-aggrandizing supremacy while the other is still developing but is working hard to rejuvenate its destiny as the most mature of all nations in both foresight and hindsight. And no relationship can subsist for long if trust is artificially destroyed.

After all, if one only sees shadows, one's eyesight will soon degrade in the dark. Both should jump into the light and work to build a better world together. There are many grave global challenges ahead. Mankind might have receded from the madness of nuclear annihilation but there are new global perils which no one nation alone can overcome. Last one checked, this planet is still an oblate spheroid.

Both western and eastern methods in life have equal measures of success that makes for progress. For instance, the western therapy method is find the magic medical bullets to shoot down precisely the disease causes. The eastern therapy method is holistically heal the entire body so that more of its parts can work together to build strength to heal inasmuch resist the future return of the cause.

And that's why no 150-page demand trade agreement can ever match a 2-page memorandum of agreement written to accommodate future changes that wax and wane like the fortunes and fates of life itself. Lighthizer and Mnuchin should know that, if they haven't realized it by now.

M: Alas, Trump and his bunch of hawks don't ...and can never. So one is not sanguine there will be any relationship to hold a deal together. The US has already opened its gate of hell and let loose its dogs of war. Trade war today, technology war tomorrow, currency war the day after, then blacklists, sanctions, extraditions even. It'll be another thucydidean game of thrones.

So, to end this waste of bytes and your time listening in, allow me to add something but all of it for the western minds....

求同存异 and 异途同归.

W: Are you sure you were really shopping for your 母亲 ?

M: I shall ignore that question....   But i do wonder since both of them would have met in Harvard, would Rodrik have asked Navarro what the hell he was peddling by way of influence on Trump?

W: We just want to go home. Motherland, wait for us ()....

Author: TrumpTwinbro4    Time: Yesterday 18:31

Happy Singles Day after Black Friday~

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