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zglobal
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China Beware

This post was originally written in answer to some idiot who started a thread with the question, "Why is China Backward". I think this issue is important enough for Chinese people to really think about their future and whether they should embrace all things foreign.

The Western Reverse Gear

Why would you assume China is backward. I don't see that at all. I see a country of people trying very hard and a government that has managed to change the face of society in a very short time.
There is pain and learning in any country that changes this fast.

I hear negative reports on foreign media about China and I they think that foreigners have too high an opinion of themselves.
What do they have? Very high crime rates, a spoiled population and a large section of the community living on welfare. A legal system choked and in chaos. I walk safely in a big city every day. Maybe some pick pockets. So what?
I don't see young people beating people up for fun because they're all too busy moving forward

China is certainly safer than most western countries. I am Australian and I often wonder what would happen to foreigners if they lived in high rise apartments with low incomes like some Chinese cities.
Gang warfare I guess.

I heard some rubbish about Chinese pollution effecting America. Hmmm. China has around 1.3 billion people to around 250 million in USA and USA is a bigger poluter. Where does all the U,S pollution go? I guess Europe, but that wouldn't make it on CNN. China is also the manufacturing hub for the western world but is expected to supply all those cheap toys without pollution. I don't agree with everything in China but I find westerners to be very one sided in their thinking about China. I don't hear the Chinese complaining about the double standards of the west. They have one thing that the west lost long ago. It's called "grace"

I watch people working hard here every day for little reward. They don't give up. I see their faces so tired sometimes but they keep looking forward. China will be a new world power because the people have the capacity. No wonder the western world is worried about them. Sure they have problems at a service level but they know it and will try harder. The Chinese at least can see they have a lot to learn.

China? Not perfect but getting better every day. I just hope they don't follow the western example too much. I shake my head every time I go back to Australia and hear everyone complaining. What a spoiled society we westerners have become.

China Backward?
China is in 5th gear and moving at 100 kilometres an hour.
Western countries are in reverse.

I'm not just talking about money but society as a whole.

Watch China go quietly about it's business. In 5th gear !!!!!!!

2007-2-17 12:27 PM

101010
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by zglobal at 2007-2-17 12:27
China is in 5th gear and moving at 100 kilometres an hour.

Actually, every time I ride in a taxi, I wonder why we're going 35kph while the driver has the taxi in 5th gear

2007-2-17 11:40 PM

zglobal
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Like the toll booth in Shenzhen they built on the passenger side of the car and needed barbeque tongs to take the ticket. He was probably driving from the passenger seat. and really in 2nd gear

2007-2-18 12:56 AM

reyquer
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Everything in China is fast even its slowing down.

2007-2-18 02:44 PM

zuraffo1981
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Excellent Post

zglobal:

That was a very well written post, but I worry it will fall on deaf ears. Unfortunately, most people involved in the article (the alledgedly "westerner" and the chinese alike) will likely dismiss you as a sinophile. Westerners (especially those who haven't been to China) will continue to think China as human rights hell hole and the Chinese will continue to think of the western countries as "advance" societies, and I fear that during the process of "learning" from her western counterparts, China inevitably become worse.

The force of history is greater than any individual and nothing you and me say can change the trend. China must be allowed to learn from the mistake of viewing other societies as advance. Even if her blunder might cost us a repression or two.

There was a chinese say that goes: The onlookers always have a clearer view. I guess that puts you and me on the seats of the onlookers, which by nature, cannot influence the outcome of the events because we are not the participants.

2007-2-18 10:11 PM

sockmonkey (sockmonkey)
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to #5

I lived in China for 9 months between 2004 and 2005 as a study-abroad student. I spent most of my time in Beijing, but traveled quite a bit around the rest of the country. Just an introduction for who I am.

I have a general opinion about China, which was/is held by many of my fellow study abroad participants and students of Chinese language and culture in general: We love the Chinese people, language, culture, history, food, etc... we hate the Chinese government. We are glad China's economy is doing so well; we like the hospitality of the people we have encountered (there have been exceptions, of course, but there will always be exceptions); we even like the Chinese language, though it sometimes gives us headaches. But the utter lack of transparency in the Chinese government and their death grip on the media is worrisome to us. We know our democratic homeland (the US) has flaws, too, but at least criticism of the government is allowed. Those are my thoughts on the matter; I'll elaborate if you wish.

2007-2-18 11:43 PM

colorfulwolf
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I thik totally the opposite, chinese culture is backwards superstitious crap, the people are of low quality but it still works as a country because of the efficient and well-considered govt policies

clearly not all us westerners agree

2007-2-19 01:09 AM

zuraffo1981
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sockmonkey:

All governments practise information control. The Chinese government use blatant information control, which is of course inferior to the US system of media-spinned lies. Sure, a handful of activists in US are allowed to write truths on the internet to attest to the "democratic" nature of the country, but the large population of USA was kept in the dark. Even then, some of the activists are marginalized to make them appear ridiculous.

I would like to make a point. You wrote: "Our democratic homeland"....
You did not distinguish between whether you are referring to the government or the people. To say that the government of the US has flaws is probably the biggest understatement (yet) of this millienium. I would submit that the current government of the USA is a total perversion of (your) founding father's constitution. The US Constitution is another story. It is well-intended and in the first few centuries of its execution, did allow for domestic democracy WHEN the economy can support it. I really like it, although it is idealistic, but such is the nature of the american people

You see, that is why I made the comment of a country of that scale NOT suitable to a democracy. During your nation building state, it is possible because there were places to fill in (the west). But when the domestic economy saturate, and when necessary the attention of the government had to turn outward, it create a problem. Either the government had to perverse the constitution so that it can gain more freedom, or it must be shackled by the popular views of the public. That the american public are over idealistic on the issue of moral must have suffocated the government.

You see, on a broad scale, it is all very simple. Democracy + a capitalist demograph allows for rapid domestic economy expansion. But when this economy reach saturation, two options present itself. Either the domestic growth be scaleback, or the government have to look for resource elsewhere. Apparently the US choose the later but soon discover the world a complex place where the welfare of the american people are not always put on the top priorities (and rightly so, the government should answer first to their own people). It inevitably led to interventionism. And because the people back home cannot stomach the concept of invasion or playing fast and loose with the rules, the government is forced to lie to the people. In any case, expansion wouldn't work. All imperialistic ambition always results in the collapse of the empire. The correct option when the two options present themselves is always the scaleback domestically. A revolution or two could be healthy. But anyway...

We don't see the chinese government as any less transparent than the US government. Of course, westerners are hampered by their inability to interpret some of the more subtle naunces of the chinese government gestures, and that can cause insecurity, which is understandable. If it is of any help, I can offer a simple psycho-analisys of how the chinese government (in general) works:

1. Economy first: Hungry peasants make for unpleansant citizens. Nothing is off the table when it comes to keeping the peasantry satisfied and well-fed.
2. Before the media spin skills catch-up, all western media will be filtered (and rightly so) before going to the chinese citizen.
3. Non-interventionist. Do not meddle in anything unless it conflicts with our interests.

That's about it. You might be tempted to ask me the question what will happen when the domestic chinese economy saturated like what happened in a lot of empires. I dare not say for the future generation, but in the past, our ancestors have always scale-back. There will be uprising, wars, etc to set back the population and economy. Sometimes the foreigh invaders do the job (Mongolians and Manchurians).

sockmonkey, if you have the opportunity, return to China. Live in the country a while longer. The silence of the chinese government might need some getting used to, but it can be a soothing non-presence and a liberating experience. The chinese themselves are noisy enough to make up for their government.

2007-2-19 01:51 AM

zuraffo1981
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colorfulwolf:

It is refreshing to hear some honest attack from the westerners on these boards. Keep it up. Please be assured that all sentiment of contempt is mutual.

2007-2-19 01:54 AM

seneca (seneca)
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So you don't like to honestly discuss the obvious - obvious to any casual and unbiased observer of Chinese reality...

For face' sake - only flatteries and half-truths are allowed; propaganda pure is de rigueur!

And, of course, China is not "backward" but the West is full of "spoilt" people, criminals, diseases...

Where do you learn about these western evils?

Methinks only a thoroughly rotten national monopoly media whose interest is to keep opinions controlled is capable of telling you such.

Meanwhile, should you want to know about the true safety sitatuion in your country open a well-informed publication.... It won't be printed in China!

2007-2-19 01:46 PM

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changabula
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by seneca at 2007-2-19 13:46
And, of course, China is not "backward" but the West is full of "spoilt" people, criminals, diseases...

Its because you have not been brought up to follow any guiding principles.

Who taught you good values to have? What philosophy do you have to guide you? Do all of you just make up your own as you go along?

It seems that the reason most of you people lack values is because your culture lacks it.

2007-2-19 03:49 PM

#11

changabula
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by colorfulwolf at 2007-2-19 01:09
I thik totally the opposite, chinese culture is backwards superstitious crap, the people are of low quality but it still works as a country because of the efficient and well-considered govt policies

You are an unreasoning animal who lacks good values because of your upbringing.

Why don't you learn Zen Buddhism, Taoism or one of the many philosophies that the Chinese gave to the world? It will instill goodness in you and give you fulfillment in life.

[ Last edited by changabula at 2007-2-19 03:54 PM ]

2007-2-19 03:52 PM

#12

sockmonkey (sockmonkey)
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to #12

Which of these do you practice that makes you such a "morally superior" creature? I don't think any of them recommend calling others animals or lacking values. From what I know of those two, they are generally very tolerant of others and focus more on teaching by example instead of by insulting people. Not qualities you have demonstrated here.

I'd like to practice Tibetan Buddhism; can you recommend that?

2007-2-19 11:28 PM

#13

chinadaily (chinadaily)
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to #07 and #13

by calling a race "people of low quality" and its culture "backwards superstitous crap" reveals the writer is kinda "morally inferior" creature. yet someone has found it is "generally very tolerant of others".

[ Last edited by chinadaily at 2007-2-20 04:34 AM ]

Image Attachment: spring festival.jpg (2007-2-20 04:34 AM, 244.99 K)

2007-2-20 04:33 AM

#14

chinadaily (chinadaily)
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Picture: people attacked by #7 are celebrating Lunar New Year!

[ Last edited by chinadaily at 2007-2-20 04:46 AM ]

Image Attachment: PM Wen extends a festival greeting to 93-year-old Wang Huanrong.jpg (2007-2-20 04:41 AM, 40.77 K)

Image Attachment: PM Wen celebrating New Year with students of Northeast Univerity.jpg (2007-2-20 04:46 AM, 81.05 K)

2007-2-20 04:37 AM

#15

sockmonkey (sockmonkey)
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to #14

I wasn't speaking to colorfulwolf's claim, as I think most Chinese people are not active Buddhists or Taoists. Those who do actively practice (which I'm going to take as meaning they do more than go to temples once or twice a year) seem to have a different attitude than the likes of changabula and those who claim moral superiority. In fact, I think the average Buddhist would deny superiority of any sort...

2007-2-20 04:52 AM

#16

changabula
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by sockmonkey at 2007-2-20 04:52
I wasn't speaking to colorfulwolf's claim, as I think most Chinese people are not active Buddhists or Taoists. Those who do actively practice (which I'm going to take as meaning they do more than g ...

You are a person of low intellect because you don't know what unreasoning animal is.

OK I forgive you and will teach you the error of your ways:

"animal" -- we are all animals! So nothing wrong with that word.

"unreasoning" -- a person lacking the ability to reason.

Putting the two together means a person who has faulty reasoning.

End of your education.

2007-2-20 06:37 AM

#17

sockmonkey (sockmonkey)
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to #17

I'd be more interested in your assessment of yourself (what makes you morally superior to me? see #13) than in your assessment of me. I'm quite familiar with myself (and my intellect, which is plenty high), thank you.

2007-2-20 06:41 AM

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tmphgt (Mr Guitar)
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by sockmonkey at 19-2-2007 10:41 PM
I'd be more interested in your assessment of yourself (what makes you morally superior to me? see #13) than in your assessment of me. I'm quite familiar with myself (and my intellect, which is plenty high), thank you.

Socko, I can help you there ...

1 part jetsam
1 part flag waver
1 part West-hater
1 part mengzhi
1 part bigot
1 part patriot

Mix it all up and what do you get?

Given the insults that fly around here, if you can't beat em, join em

2007-2-20 08:02 AM

#19

changabula
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by sockmonkey at 2007-2-20 06:41
I'd be more interested in your assessment of yourself (what makes you morally superior to me? see #13) than in your assessment of me. I'm quite familiar with myself (and my intellect, which is plen ...

Mine will always be higher than yours!

2007-2-20 08:04 AM

#20

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