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iluv2fish (iluv2fish)
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Will China NOW Get Western Weapons?

With France being bought already....China now br:bes Germany.

"US$1.7b deals dominate Who's German agenda
(China Daily)
Updated: 2005-11-11 05:47

BERLIN: Lucrative commercial deals dominated the agenda on the first day of President Who first state visit to Germany yesterday.

The eight deals worth US$1.7 billion were scheduled to be signed after talks between Hu and German President Horst Koehler, who officially welcomed his Chinese counterpart with full military honours at the historic Charlottenburg Palace."

Why does China need these Western weapons so bad? At what cost will they aquire them? Will Germany now get on board now and lift this arms ban on China?

Stay tuned...

2005-11-11 08:50 AM

gyom2004
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2 reasons

France wants to sell weapons to China:
1. because France doesnt like the US and want China to be stronger
2. because China will not buy US weapons and might buy French weapons

2005-11-11 11:36 AM

andrew_gz
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China has a right to defend herself. (or be prepared to do so)

As for which weapons should be purchased and from whom?

Like anything else you want to get the best for less.

If that means France so be it, if that means the States then so be it.

2005-11-11 01:05 PM

iluv2fish (iluv2fish)
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China is playing both ends against the middle....

I understand this. In fact I agree with Chinese strategies on this. But will it work. If it works or it does not work, China has put the whole world in danger.
The United States of America does not care if China buys weapons from the USA or Europe or anywhere else but what the USA is in doubt about is what china will do with the weapons.
China has evil friends. These evil friends are who the USA is fearful of. We do not think that rational China will use weapons to start a war but...a rational North Korea? Well you have heard of an oxymoron.
If China would come clean and join the West and stop going against the West with a vote every chance it gets then maybe just maybe we could start trusting China.
Do you know what I mean?

2005-11-12 08:28 AM

asmanthink
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I don't think china needs more weapons

What china needs are brains. Brains for the containment of environmental pollution. Brains for the education of china's young generations. Brains for political reform. Deadly weapons without sufficient guidance of good brains is a dangerous thing.

2005-11-12 09:34 AM

iluv2fish (iluv2fish)
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Thinking man...

The Chinese government is on a mission to have Western weapons and they will try anything to get them.

2005-11-14 12:01 PM

caringhk (O Sweetie&Me go laojia. ..)
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That is called Balance of Power!!!

When USA don't supply, others can and you get jealous. Others make money. You sit on inventory. And trying to create something that uses your economy. Refer to past Cuba war.

Same like nuclear plants. GE can supply but USA says no. So France gets the orders.

You talk about trust like you can open your heart out. Can you put it there on the table first before you keep murmuring what is behind China's back. China can read your thoughts as they have the technique!!!
Do you???

Why not buy and make things better so that one can surprise the world!!!

Kind regards

2005-11-14 03:51 PM

iluv2fish (iluv2fish)
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We are afraid of China's friends

I hear you and I understand you I think (I can not read your thoughts)

It does seem that we are "jealous" for other people selling arms instead of us. When we sell arms, (and it really is not a great thing to be proud of as it shows the dark side of man), we try and do this with much responsibility. Not only do you get a weapon but the "policeman" will show you how to store the gun safely.

Now we do worry about some of China's friends. We consider some of these friends, shall we just say...unstable. You would not sell a gun to an unstable person would you?

Well sometimes we feel that the USA's loss is China's gain. Is China a friend to the USA? I do not think so. Do we have good trading relations with China? Yes we do but that is not being a friend. Until we can at least trust China not to undermine us and that is exactly how we feel then selling arms to China is the last thing we want to do.

We sold weapons to Venezuela and then a Communist came to power and this is what he said....

"Wednesday, 2 November 2005, 11:45 GMT

Venezuela threatens US over F-16s

President Hugo Chavez has warned the US he could give some of his country's F-16 fighter jets to Cuba or China.

Mr. Chavez accused the US of breaking a contract to supply spare parts for the jets it sold to Venezuela in the 1980s. He suggested that Washington would be less than pleased if military rivals gained access to the advanced planes.

The F-16s were sold to previous governments that had better relations with the White House. The US sees Mr. Chavez as an unfriendly head of state. The Venezuelan president's latest provocative announcement came during a nationally televised address, dominated by appeals to Latin Americans to end the dominance of the US.

Speaking of the fighter planes, he said he was "only thinking out loud". "Maybe we will just send them back to them, or perhaps we will send 10 planes to Cuba, or to China, so they can have a look at the technology of these aircraft."

So I hope you understand we are not jealous...we are afraid, as China makes many people nervous in this world.

2005-11-15 09:16 AM

eightyeight (Thos. P. Jackstraw)
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Silly boy

China can produce the equivalent of Western weapons -- they are working to modernize their military by pursuing a more technological approach, and this only makes good sense, especially since they have every reason to be wary of what the future might bring -- Japanese Nationalism, break-away Republics, terrorists, the US ability to bully ... who knows, maybe the US will have another governmental nut like the hero of Waco, Texas, in a position of power.

And, eventually Taiwan will return to China ("it's the economy, stupid!") and all the weapons the US has been pushing down their throats will eventually belong to China.

[ Last edited by chinadaily at 2005-12-24 07:22 PM ]

2005-11-15 10:19 AM

scales
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boys behave

Bush is in your woods. now ..now...

2005-11-15 10:35 AM

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caringhk (O Sweetie&Me go laojia. ..)
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88 Right on, Keep riding over silly boy fish

Fish - What??? You know how to store guns!!!

Why are little children shooting and killing teachers/boys&girls all over
in USA schools!!!
Only oxy-moron will listen to you about storage.
Perhaps you should hibernate and store yourself in a cold room as you no longer know how to make friends.
True friend don't get jealous.
Only fishy tales do.
So lock yourself in a room or a bowl.

We know you prefer showing the Japs!!!

Kind regards

2005-11-15 11:07 AM

#11

asmanthink
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it is common sense

that a nation's strength and power lies in the character of its cultivated citizens and not in the array of its arsenals. .

the money, time and energy china uses begging for advanced weapons from the west could be wisely spend on looking inward to correct its own faults and gain inner strength. that's the real source of power.

why America is so powerful if it is as corrupt as most of the chinese patriots here claim to be? why it could successfully invade iraq in a couple of weeks with a minimum risk of lives? why Saddam's presidential guards fled without a fight? they were not so much weaker in weapons as weaker in their spirits and hearts.

2005-11-15 11:42 AM

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iluv2fish (iluv2fish)
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88

Sticks and stones will break my bones...
but names will never hurt me.

Sometimes I wonder about you 88. Sometimes you are thoughtful and resourceful and then this last post. I am disappointed.

88-"China can produce the equivalent of Western weapons"

I do agree with you here, but....
China is trying to cheat their way to the top. They want these Western Weapons badly and you know why. They want to reverse engineer and make them better. By reverse engineering and not having to go through the trial and error of research and development.
China will save billions of $$$ by cheating. I also agree with the experts that China will not buy many Western weapons. I expect the Chinese weapons order will be (when the weapons ban is lifted and I think it will someday):
We want 4 of each of the weapons you have. You need no more than four to reverse engineer.
But we get off the point I was trying to make. It is not so much that China we fear but these nutcases that China has as friends. They are neither stable nor trustworthy and pose a great danger to the very existence to the world we know. Arm a lunatic with a weapon and there is no telling who that lunatic might shoot.

Then 88 your must stupid statement yet: "and all the weapons the US has been pushing down their throats will eventually belong to China."
So China will now push these weapons down people’s throat. No, somehow I am sure you would put a different spin on this. America does not have to "push" weapons; everyone needs a weapon for "self defense" right?

2005-11-17 10:18 AM

#13

eightyeight (Thos. P. Jackstraw)
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reply to caringhk

Hmmm ...

I like iluv2fish, I think he is sincere. He probes and pushes the questions and concerns from the Christian Right within the US. He is not my enemy, though his barking gets annoying, it is still nothing more than an invitation to engage and discuss. He has concerns and fears. How they came to be, what they mean, these are important. It is an opportunity to explain and come to an understanding, a greater awareness and perhaps an appreciation?

Have you seen the movie 'Fog of War'? It is an interview with Robert S. McNamara, who was the US Secretary of Defense under Presidents Kennedy and Johnson -- until LBJ fired him. He was a man I used to despise and loathe. His self-centered ego led him to serve a washed-out, out-of-step President Johnson, who was genuinely lost in the world of which he tried to push around. LBJ's friends were a bunch of old-rime Southern rednecks, long since outdated and left behind, whose lack of a modern vision and a worldly perspective took my country down a stupid path of destruction. The cost was 3 million Vietnamese lives and 58,000 American lives.

What these two never understood were the Vietnamese people.

LBJ was ignorantly and stubbornly bound to a notion that the domino theory had some relevance. What he never understood was that the Vietnamese people didn't give a rat's ass for any sort of Western ideology, they saw the foreign powers in their Nation as an infection, a thing that had no reason to be there. They are strongly independent, they want to do things their own damn way, now and forever and not be subjected to some foreign idea or rule. It wasn't about ideology, it was about independence. Ding-a-ling McNamara never knew it, not until many long years after the war was over and he ventured over to discuss why it was, with the folks he had worked so hard to beat.

He concluded that empathy was important. You needed understanding.

LBJ had no understanding, no empathy and he left his office a broken man, failed and with the realization he had taken a job that he himself was quite unprepared for.

They were mistaken. But look at the cost of their mistakes!

2005-11-17 12:00 PM

#14

eightyeight (Thos. P. Jackstraw)
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reply to iluv2fish

Please read my reply to caringhk.

There is a powerful self-centered Lobby in the US that pushes for their own ability to rule over that little island province across the Straights, they have moneyed friends in places of power in the ranks of the neocon circle and they are supported by a selfish military-industrial complex of powerful corporations whose only real desire is to make money. They are a thorn in the side of the Senators and Congressmen they push-around. And, some of those wager to serve their greed have the self-derived mindset that the big giant powerful US of A ought to have their own damn way around the world.

They do not have a clue as what the he.. they are doing.

The people of Ta.iw.an are not Japanese, they are not Americans, they are not even Ta.iw.anese, as the real natives of that island are a small group that have pushed out of their way decades ago. These folks are Chinese, by heritage, by ancestry, by language, by culture. There religion and their spirit is inexorably tied to the mainland. Their economy is Chinese. Their way of life is Chinese. Their perspective is Chinese.

And, by every rightful moral and ethical argument the land is Chinese.

The economy is bound to China's and given time, and trust, and understanding, they will eventually embrace their homeland.

The US plays a dangerous game of pressure and power play, with the stakes being the innocent lives of so many innocent people who will never receive the benefit of the glory-seeking money-grubbing power lords who keep their lives on the balance of danger.

The fools that sell their second rate war machines to Ta.iw.an are merely selling them to a people who will eventually hand them over to China.

Time is on China's side.

The ignorant call for China to take on the American form of government stems from a total lack of understanding the Chinese people and the complex problems in this country that only the Chinese mind can solve. The sooner the Westerners realize that only Westerners think and act like Westerners, the better off the world will be.

I will keep trying to explain things to you, in my own way, and I cannot help it if sometimes it comes off as being just a bit impatient -- I am a Westerner after all.

2005-11-17 12:24 PM

#15

eightyeight (Thos. P. Jackstraw)
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Respect

Yeah, so now is the time to talk about respect.

Like so many other Westerners, you think the Chinese cheat, they borrow and copy instead of deriving these things by and of themselves.

Mmmm hmmm ...

So, like Schwarzenegger and Bush and the Republicans that sit up in Congress, you want the Chinese to respect our inventions and our intellectual property.

But respect is a two-way street.

And China has been patiently waiting for you all to figure this out.

Get out of China's face with your single-minded perspective that you and only you know what is best for the Chinese!

Sit back, take a rest, have yourself a pause ... the flowers grow, the trees sway in the wind, as does the grass, the world revolves, the morning comes and goes.

The Chinese, are quite damn capable, seasoned veterans of so much humility and sadness, of wars and things that go bump in the night -- there is nothing new under the sun! Yet they are here and the survive and they have lived on ... and on. They preserver. Need you wonder why?

You think their passivity is a weakness? That you, like the Japanese Imperialists need to harden these people to the harsh and cruel bitterness of the world as you know it? How damn dare you!

The US plays patsy with another runaway government: Japan. The warlords have their hands at the throats of their people, not unlike they had over their Emperor just so many seven decades ago. You don't believe me? Take your own census of the Japanese youth!!!

You reckon that the power game is to force North Korea to accept your idealism? Is that really all? I sure do reckon is not! Given the pacification of North Korea where in Asia will the powerful great shield bangers be looking next? Oh, China, you don't eat with a fork and spoon the way we tell you to!

Give me a damn break!

Who looks to show their respect by having passed a goofy Act of War and have not bothered to rescind it yet? Instead the mouth play goes on and on ... yeah, we respect you ... OK, OK, now respect us! Ha! Actions speak louder than words! If you really mean it, then by God, show it!

Meanwhile, China sure as he.. better do all it can to cover its ass -- for on the game of love and war, their ain't no damn rules, and as long as trust has no basis, then friends are like the Summertime, they come and go with the favorable seasons, but which one stays to spend the cold hard winter with you? To be there when you are sick and frail? Umm hmmm

Respect is a two-way street. A street the US has taken already down the wrong way and has yet to take the measures to demonstrate it has genuinely changed course. it waivers and whimpers -- a summertime, sometime friend.

2005-11-17 12:50 PM

#16

iluv2fish (iluv2fish)
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88...Lest you ever forget...

(88- "OK, OK, now respect us!")

.....YOU are an AMERICAN!

2005-11-20 01:55 AM

#17

eightyeight (Thos. P. Jackstraw)
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I am AMERICAN!!!

Yes, damn right, iluv2fish!

My ancestral tree is the most ancient of our Nation, one branch begins in the 17th Century when they were sent by the King of England to bring order to the once colony. Their descendants fought in the American Revolution over a hundred years later to see the foundation of our Nation in the role of serving the people of our Nation.

Perhaps some may not find it so sterling that several branches of my ancestral tree served in the Confederate States of America. That is your opinion!

As for me, yes, I am AMERICAN, and I am a man, a simple human being, a laughable joke of a creature that lives in a world of constant uncertainty and surprise, of hardship and horror, of love and life. I am a human being and a world citizen!

It is my duty as an American to speak out when I see the dangers and misdirection that our course has taken! I have spoken with a voice granted to me, for some strange reason, by China Daily, and my voice has been spread throughout the world and copied again and again by the world's most prestigious of news makers, and has found its way into the discussions of our American think-tank forums and right into your home, my fellow American!

See what I have to say in jungoffender's thread 'on freedom' in this section of the forum, Talk to China Daily.

I have a unique perspective, I reckon, one that neither the CIA, the FBI, Homeland Security, nor the pent-up lifestyles of our American political elite, I live in the thick of Chinese society, not off in some isolated and separated seclusion of ex-pat isolation. I have had the honor and privilege of meeting and working with the real gears and wheels of this Nation's government and people. It is a perspective from deep within, not from a curious and safe distance!

Perhaps, you and your folks don't like what I say. What the h... do you all really know? I ask you, sir, where do you derive your opinion?

And, I have lived in the thick of our American society, amid the less fortunate, among the dirt and grime, alongside the everyday man for decades. And, I do know, that they do NOT know, nor do they give a damn about what is going on way the bloomin' h... over here!

Did you catch the following article, a focused census from the American intellegentsia? (hopefully reproduced in the following post)

2005-11-20 09:40 AM

#18

eightyeight (Thos. P. Jackstraw)
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Opinion of American movers-and-shakers, not your everyday could-care-less fellow

Americans see China as less of a threat
(AFP)
Updated: 2005-11-18 23:21

Americans still perceive China as a danger to their country, but they do not see it as an adversary and believe it will grow in importance in the future, a Pew Research Institute survey found.

In contrast with four years ago when a majority of opinion leaders viewed China as the biggest danger to the United States, today China, North Korea and Iran are mentioned about as frequently, said the poll published Thursday.

China is also not seen as an adversary and is not causing concern as an emerging global power, according to the poll of 2,006 Americans and 520 opinion leaders in the media, church, state and local government, military, science and engineering and foreign affairs. It was conducted in September and October.

Those who most often cited China as the greatest current danger to the United States were academic and think tank leaders (34 percent), followed by state and local government leaders (27 percent).

Military leaders considered China and Iran equal in danger (23 percent for each)

Foreign affairs leaders viewed North Korea as more of a threat than China (26 to 23 percent), with Iran a close third at 21 percent.

The general public perceived Iraq as the biggest danger to the United States (18 percent), followed by China (16 percent), North Korea and Iran (13 percent each).

North Korea's nuclear program is a cause of great concern for about 66 percent in all groups, with scientists and engineers the least concerned (42 percent) and news media the most (72 percent).

Iran's nuclear program is a smaller source of concern: 61 percent in all groups.

A possible military clash between the Chinese mainland and Taiwan is seen as a major threat to the United States by only 34 percent of the general public, while 62 percent of opinion leaders think otherwise.

A clash between India and Pakistan was considered a major threat to the United States by 32 percent of opinion leaders, while 23 percent said growing authoritarianism in Russia was the bigger threat.

Of more concern to the general public, the poll found, is the amount of US debt held by foreign investors: 55 percent rates this issue as a major threat. Only scientists/engineers and state an local government officials rated foreign indebtedness as a major threat (63 and 59 percent respectively).

China's emergence as a global power is not triggering increased concern among the general public and opinion leaders, said the poll.

While a "solid majority" of opinion leaders and 45 percent of the general public view China as a "serious problem," only one in five in each group consider the communist nation an adversary.

Among government officials, academics, think tank leaders, scientists and engineers, China is most frequently named as a country that will be more important to the United States in coming years, Pew Research Institute added.

When asked which US allies will become more or less important in the future, opinion leaders most often mentioned France as becoming less important while India and China were most often listed as becoming more important.

"Military leaders, in particular, believe France will be less important to the US in the future," according to the survey. "By contrast, far fewer than one in 10 military leaders cite any Asian country as being less important to the US in the future."

Fifty percent of the general public believe the United States should remain its position as the world's sole superpower, while for 35 percent would find it acceptable if China, another country or the European Union became as militarily powerful as the United States.

*****

Lifted from: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-11/18/content_496049.htm

2005-11-20 09:46 AM

#19

eightyeight (Thos. P. Jackstraw)
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Did you catch the stamp of wisdom by others who tread along a similar path as mi

A guide to success in China, by Americans who live there
By Calum MacLeod (USA TODAY)
Updated: 2005-11-18 15:14

The number of Americans living in China has reached a historic high of 110,000. They are teachers, hairdressers, diplomats, travelers, students and business fat cats. There's even a bluegrass banjo player and singer who is scheduled to perform in Mandarin here Friday night.

What kind of advice about dealing with the Chinese can American expatriates pass along to President Bush, who comes through Saturday night for a state visit?

Take a long-term view, they say. Ensure your expectations are realistic. Show respect by soaking in some Chinese history. Dealing with the Chinese is a contact sport, so work on relationships — but have fun.

Some insights from Americans who have built a life in China:

Persistence pays off

When author Peter Hessler moved from Columbia, Mo., to a small town on the Yangtze River town as a Peace Corps volunteer teacher in 1996, he says he saw signs everywhere that said "No Foreigners Allowed" and even "

repare for War" — relics of an era of deep mistrust between China and the rest of the world. He says he didn't feel like "a representative of America, but had to accept I was seen as that."

He found that the key to finding acceptance was mastering the Chinese language. That opened up a society that was, in fact, curious about the outside world after decades of isolation. He found out that America and China have a lot in common.

"The longer I live here, the more similarities I see between the USA and China," says Hessler, 36, whose book River Town: Two Years on the Yangtze was published by HarperCollins in 2001. "Besides the similarity in (geographical) size, there's no single language or ethnic group, so it's amazing that China works, and the U.S., too."

He adds, "These are two incredibly powerful cultures that have attracted other peoples."

Hessler encourages other Americans here to study Chinese because it shows respect for the culture. He also notes that today more people are studying English in China than speaking it in the USA.

His next book, Oracle Bones, due in April, will explore Chinese-U.S. themes.

His advice: Be persistent.

"I learned the need to be patient, persistent and not easily intimidated," he says.

Patience is profitable

Businessman Peter Zenello, 48, learned the hard way about the importance of communication. "When I arrived to study in 1984, China really was a hardship tour. The Chinese were afraid to sit down and talk to you," he says.

Zenello, from Plymouth, Mass., finally found language partners in a public park near the imperial lakes of Beijing, where toothless old men paraded their caged birds and sang opera. Today the Shichahai neighborhood is a bustling district of bars and restaurants popular with the expatriate community and the capital's nouveau riche.

In 1987, Zenello joined pioneering U.S. firm Chindex, which distributes medical equipment here. Never forgetting that "doing business in China is a fight," Zenello and colleagues earned "face" locally by staying in China after the government cracked down on pro-democracy protesters in Tiananmen Square in 1989. Many other foreign firms pulled out.

As China sped up on the road to capitalism, Zenello's ambitions grew. Eventually, he established distribution networks for other medical companies and now works with his Chinese wife — their company is called Mei United — to export Inner Mongolian sheep products and bring American jazz performances and education to China.

His advice: Be patient.

"China can be a land of opportunity. But many foreigners leave their brains at home. If you know the system, have the time and patience, you can get things done, and that's what makes it exciting."

Dancing brings discovery

Dancer Aly Rose says she has had many exciting moments in China.

While taking a Chinese-language exam in the southwestern city of Kunming in 1999, a brick smashed through a window. It had been thrown at her by protesters angry about the accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia, during U.S.-led NATO airstrikes.

"I was really scared," says the Galveston, Texas, native. "I thought I was close to this country, but I had become an enemy of the state." She decided to stay, however, and now calls China home.

In 2002, Rose became the first Westerner to graduate from the Beijing Dance Academy, one of Asia's finest. Her teachers never used her name. Instead, they called her "Little American Girl." "I didn't exist as myself. I existed as a country," she says.

Rose, in her early 30s, has prospered here. She has won plaudits and prizes for her choreography and dance. She even brought Broadway to China as choreographer for Lady in the Dark, the first Broadway musical produced on a Chinese stage.

Restrictions on artistic freedom sometimes leave Rose feeling as if she is "dancing with a ball and chain." But she treasures the chance to work in partnership with Chinese dancers and to create "things that have never been seen before."

Her advice: Embrace a new way of life.

"It's like stepping on another planet and breathing a new type of air. But it's more than a whole different culture, there's a whole different worldview and history," she says. "And you don't get anywhere by challenging it."

Pack a strong backbone, too, Rose adds, and be yourself. China is a great place "if you can be spontaneous, ... enjoy the one-on-one with the Chinese people — and be willing to laugh at yourself."

*****

Lifted from: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-11/18/content_496014.htm

2005-11-20 09:51 AM

#20

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