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mpc1999
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Why is it wrong to visit the Yasukuni Shrine !!

After countless "Apologies" by the Japanese officials, I am puzzled as to why
they are accused of "not being sincere".

One reason so often I come to pass is the issues of the Yasukuni shrine.
Especially common in western media, the shrine is described as
"The place that commemorate the war criminals as heroes" but is this really the case?

I don't see it that way, but simply a mis-understanding caused by lack of understanding
difference in religious views of Japan which is unique in many ways.

I'm no expert in the subject, but in "Shinto" (which actually happens to have many influence from
the past Chinese culture in its roots), upon death, every soul will gain a place to rest in peace,
let it be good or evil.

that for good are honoured for having good deeds while in living,
and for the evil, to have received the ultimate punishment, the "death".

[ Last edited by chinadaily at 2007-1-13 10:33 AM ]

2005-4-23 11:37 AM

mpc1999
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Graveyards and the corpse benieth will never talk, the living will

How good or bad a man can be in his living, there are lessons we can learn from it.
One lesson Japan has learnt from the war and its victims is that violence will never solve a dispute, internal or external.
For that in her institution Japan has declared to denounced War as a means of solving dispute,and de-armed all its military capabilities.

Since the end of the past war, Japan has not mobilized her forces anywhere in the world
instead relied on peaceful measures of solving dispute, for 60 full years.
Isn't this a sincere act of remorse, more than just some public relations wordings that many so claim the politicians are playing?

In Shinto there are no heavens or hell, the souls will just become a part of nature -
to become one of the 8,000,000 gods that are said to be around everywhere,
to rest in eternity, with the generations beyond and beyond.

Though it may seem a little kiddish, the film "

rincess Mononoke" by Hayao Miyazaki
beautifully illustrates Japanese view on the life beyond and values of nature.

2005-4-23 11:38 AM

mpc1999
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No "Winner" in a war, just the victims.

I know in communist China a religion is often treated as a "Drag for the Minds"
but please try to understand that one of the reasons why Japan and her people
will NEVER raise in arms to hurt friends abroad is the silenct words of the dead corpses
buries in Yasukuni.
It will never be a cause for Japan to take military action like some fear, but the opposite.

It is understandable as many in Japan have also lost loved ones, by their own act but the result is the same, that those who were hurt in the war will not be without bitterness,

But the Yasukuni Shrine is not a place to honour the murderers of Chinese (or any other nations) victims,
but a fact to remember the fact those murderers are put down to death for their actions.

I hope I am being clear enough, and there sometime be a mutual understanding between us that is one and maybe only thing we need if we are to peacefully be happy together for the times to come.

thanks for reading!

2005-4-23 11:43 AM

mpc1999
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Sorry I forgot to put the question mark in the topic title

It should have read

"Why is it wrong to visit the Yasukuni Shrine?"

my apologies if someone read this topic and was illustrated by the content which might not seem what the title suggests.

2005-4-23 11:49 AM

admchengho (Taiko)
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Because...

Any sane human being would understand that worshipping and honouring brutal rapists and savage murderers as NATIONAL HEROES is wrong.

p/s: if that is acceptable to you, then you're on your own. And be prepared to be treated as such!

2005-4-23 11:55 AM

mpc1999
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See..

here's a dictionary definition of "worshiping"
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=worshiping

What I would liked to demonstrate, is that in your phrasing,
"worshipping and honouring brutal rapists and savage murderers as NATIONAL HEROES"

is just a MIS-UNDERSTANDING.

In reality it is a "

lace to honour the fact brutal rapists and savage murderers received the ultimate punishment of death"

Do you see the difference, and the points I'm making?

Graveyards are for the dead. but what we make out of it is up to us.
So sad that really we are both feeling and thinking the same, but those lost in translation goes as far as to make us think we are not.

If I don't make sense please tell and I'll try to clerify further.
and that sort of threating is unnecessary.

2005-4-23 12:03 PM

luf2004 (luf2004)
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mpc1999

seems you interpret word differently from anyone else.

Check your dictionary, what does 'shrine' mean?

Here it is:

shrine [shrīn]
n (plural shrines)
1. holy place of worship: a sacred place of worship associated with a holy person or event
2. container for holy relics: a case or other container for sacred relics, for example, the bones of a saint
3. tomb of holy person: the tomb of a saint or other revered figure
4. niche for religious icon: a ledge or alcove for a religious icon, for example, in a church
5. something revered: an object or place revered for its associations or history

Let me ask you here – are those war criminals holy persons??

So far I only find one Japanese here is quite honest. You and other Japanese here are just insane. What you guys behave here is - everyone knows you lied and now you are telling another lie to cover up your past lies. Isn't it too stupid?

If you guys believe what you are doing is ok, then go ahead, this is the way of Japanese anyway. Then don't blame your neighbors believe you are bad guys and dishonest, no honor, or whatever.

2005-4-23 12:44 PM

mpc1999
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luf2004

I see no conflict with my post and Def. 5 in your post.

It might be hard to comprehend, but a living person will never be "holy" or "sacred", except the living emperor himself.
Upon death, every ancestor of ours will be in their sacred resting places, in spirit.
Not that the crimes commited will be justified, but simply remembered.

Those criminals are never holy nor whatever good, in my personal view neither.
That is precisely why I think the shrine is important.
NOT to praise their crimes, but to remember the fact and make sure that no-one will repeat the same crimes again.

This is my honest view and there's no cover up.
What are the lies that you say there are?
Have I ever, or any Japanese person you know, denied of the wartime atrocities Japan caused?
This is our way of paying back the crimes Japan committed.

I'm sure there is much lost in translation so please do tell. From there we can probably see a lot more that both of us misses.
You suggest like not talking and assuming what each other is probably thinking is the only way we can live together. I disagree with that too.

Accusations will never be a way of knowing truth. co-operation will.

I want your honest words on issues, not what I'm thinking behind words.
help me to help us, to help you and the countries that is China and Japan.
thanks.

2005-4-23 01:06 PM

mpc1999
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beside,

<quote>If you guys believe what you are doing is ok, then go ahead, this is the way of Japanese anyway. Then don't blame your neighbors believe you are bad guys and dishonest, no honor, or whatever.</quote>

Will you stop the assusations like that?
This is MY way of thinking that I chose as a democratic civilian and your view of generalised "Japanese way" almost hurts beyond irritation. it won't help.

Issue like this so hard to understand, from both stances.
and that is precisely why we need to exchange sincere words, not hatred or pre-cooked assumptions.

What do we need, or need to get rid of, to just talk?
I see a few people like you in Japan, against China. that really aggreviate me.
hope we won't become like one of them nationalists.

2005-4-23 01:15 PM

luf2004 (luf2004)
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Reply: luf2004

double posted

2005-4-23 01:22 PM

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luf2004 (luf2004)
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Reply: luf2004

"Those criminals are never holy nor whatever good, in my personal view neither." but you put them in a holy shrine, and worship them every year.

And you keep telling you are not lying.

Tell me what has lost in the translation? The Japanese words are actually Chinese words - 靖国神社. "靖国" means greatly contributed to the country, "神社" means exactly "shrine", which is for holy persons or gods.

Do I miss anything?

So here, by both Japanese words and English translation, it means the war criminals are holy or god, the reason of they are holy is, they greatly contributed the country - Japan.

Again do I miss anything?

"Accusations will never be a way of knowing truth. co-operation will.", that is absolutely correct. So the first thing you should do is - being honest.

2005-4-23 01:22 PM

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myfriend
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Perhaps it is easier to understand it this way:

think of the German chancellor visiting Hitler's grave frequently and crying his heart out loud. What's he doing?

2005-4-23 01:41 PM

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luf2004 (luf2004)
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mpc1999

I have no fixed thinking on any Japanese because I have never know anyone, and I only come to this Sino-Japan forum for few days. But what I found is, from few Japanese, include you, you guys have no real intention to have a constructive discussion. Instead, you guys love to cover up A, B, C,... Z, when A was clearly exposed, then try very hard to cover up B, C, D...Z.

When even Z could not be covered up, then saying it is hard to explain.

If I call it Japanese way, It might to too soon to draw a conclusion. However this is my true feeling about you few boys.

Check back what you have posted here - "Why is it wrong to visit the Yasukuni Shrine" ---- Why you ask? By basic human being common sense, IT IS WRONG.

If you have a good intention to tell us what you think we might not know some special thing in Japanese, then tell us. But don't be so rude jump into here and ask us - Why is it wrong to visit the Yasukuni Shrine.

Behave yourself.

2005-4-23 01:41 PM

#13

mpc1999
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Meaning of ”靖国”

Thanks for pulling up with me on words issues, now I think I see where the root of this is leading to.

”靖国” is indeed in Chinese characters that our ancestors took with gratitude.
But the meaning, often differ from what they are originally.

In your phrasing "greatly contributed to the country" is not the case with the shrine.
”靖国”, two characters combined, is one word in Japanese to "Make country stable in peace".

You seem to think the name of the shrine suggests that the "Criminals made the country better", it does not.
It's named so that "WE, the post-war generations in Japan, make country stable", by learning from our wrongful past.

Pretty much the same goes for  "神社" too. it may seem odd, and I wouldn't blame you
if you think the Japanese are mad, but there are  "神社"s for mobile phones, credit cards,
pets and men's testicles too.
Japanese are very religious and they like making  "神社"s for pretty much everything.
While it is common to have " 神社" for the past heroes, emperors and people,
it does not necessary mean people visiting them pays worship to their greatness.
They are often just a memorial to remember people or things, that are now enshrined.

What those criminals did was the opposite of the name, throw whole of Asia into a mess.
Whatever the reasons or beliefs of starting the war, what they DID is absolutely unbearable.
I think we both agree on this, right?

I am being absolutely honest in everything I write, grad you seem to be doing the same

Now leaving the naming issue aside, do you think I am still mad, by visiting the yasukuni shrine,
in the hopes I can learn from our past and to re-promising that we will never,
engage in deadly combat again?

2005-4-23 01:50 PM

#14

mpc1999
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please see above

<quote>If you have a good intention to tell us what you think we might not know some special thing in Japanese,</quote>

here it is above.
Hope you don't think I'm being ruder by posting that ;)

2005-4-23 01:53 PM

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luf2004 (luf2004)
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mpc1999

Fair enough, make better sense.

Now my question is - it seems Japanese have different interpretation on "shrine" than rest of the world, and you even have "cellphone shrine" , and "credit card shrine", then why don't have a "war criminal's shrine"?

The feeling of other nations is not worth to mention?

Remember, if you want to be respected, respect the others first.

Btw, you mean the war criminals brought peace to Japan?

2005-4-23 02:00 PM

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mpc1999
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Grad now it's a little more clear.

See? you will never know what's lost in translation.

I hope you are not suggesting the Yasukuni shrine be renamed to "war criminals shrine"?

The dead buried there are not just the war criminals and includes many civilians that were killed
under US bombings on the mainland Japan.

Leaving that aside, the shrine is no longer a just place to remember and morn the dead, but now it has
far more important rules of commemorating Japan's anti-war anti-violence stance.

Why do you think that hurts the feelings of other nations?
Isn't Japan not being sincere enough, by clearly declaring to de-arm and keeping the words for 60 years?

2005-4-23 02:33 PM

#17

luf2004 (luf2004)
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mpc1999

I am not sure you truly don't understand what I wrote, or you just behave the same way as other few Japanese here - cover up and pretend don't know -- here I have no offensive intention.

Let me repeat what I have wrote in clearer way:

1. Japanese interprete "SHRINE" differently from rest of the world, according to what you told me.

2. Japan's neoghbor, also war victims, interprete "shrine" in normal way, which is the same as rest of the world. So when the Japanese PM keep worship the war criminals, IT IS TRUE INSULT TO THESE NATIONS, and provoking the peace in this region. Clear enough for you?

3. Why don't Japanese government respect that rest of the world is different from Japan, that everyone else believe it is a serious insult to war victims. A very simple thing to do is, remove the war criminals out of there, and build another one, it can be called - "WAR CRIMINAL'S SHRINE", and the Japanese officials should keep away from there and have no problem to worship the real war victims in Yasukuni Shrine.

Why a very simple thing become so difficult? Isn't it a reasonable requist?

2005-4-23 03:00 PM

#18

luf2004 (luf2004)
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Reply:

"Isn't Japan not being sincere enough, by clearly declaring to de-arm and keeping the words for 60 years?"

Well, I hope we could feel the same way, but the Japanese government keep telling us that the war crimes is "not worth to mention", and creats disputes with China, Korea, and Russia, provok China's soverignity over Taiwan, and want to become a "normal" country, and your defense budget keep reminding us that Japan has built-up a huge armed force, which has most advanced air force, and navy, which surly not only for "self-defense" -- what is the neccessaty to built-up such a armed force for "defense"?

Again, I have to remind you, if you want to be respected, respect the others first. Japan behaves rude and inrresponsible in East Aisa - here I think I don't need to mentioned what Japan has done in past 10 years. The most important to Japan and Japanese is not complain the neighbors, not cry to anyone, the first thing Japan needs to do is behave yourself and respect the others.

Remove the war criminals from the shrine, isn't very simple?

2005-4-23 03:13 PM

#19

mpc1999
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I don't think the matter is that simple.

luf2004,

I think I understand you okay, but I see problem in us having a difference in background
and the way of thinking. but the gap is getting closer through this meaningful conversation,
let's get through it one by one and I think we'll get there one day.
And no, it is not that simple to just remove the war criminals, for long reasons that I try to explain.

1. I don't think the Japanese view on the word has any dramatic difference to yours or world's,
but what's confusing is the fact the shrine is, for the corroborative fact that millions
have died during war, and it should not be repeated.
It enshrines an event that took place in history, and not just for the bodies buried underneath.

2. I differ to you on the view that it may or may not be an insult, depending on how you look at the issue.
I am NOT saying that Chinese people should accept everything the Japanese
way, but hoping for some understanding of our culture, and definetely
NOT an wrong understanding that the Japanese have enshrined them
thinking they are in any way good, nor great, because they are not.
The crimes they commited (murder, rape) are no doubt wrong, and every Japanese knows it.
More on this after next.

3. Digging up and separating the demoted few, has other religious complications,
leaving the physical difficulty aside.

This illustration might seem a bit radical, but how would you feel if you wake up one day, to realize
the house right next to yours have been decided illegal or rude, and without prior notification to you,
they then start a massive dig up project for months to come?

It might sound silly, but the dead are dead for many reasons.
One thing you can't do is communicate with them, hence no asking for permission.

This is the reason why the Japanese are so reluctant to move any landmarks that are said to be
providing a resting place for dead souls. They might even come back if treated wrongly(!)
You wouldn't want Japan to wake up in her imperial-times-self would you?

That's why the Japanese are so desperate to find other ways of displaying
their remorse and sincerety. And by keeping the promise to de-arm and
assisting all Asian nations via ODA funds, and keeping all the promises to the United Nations,
I think Japan is not doing too bad. I am not saying you should be greatful to
everything Japan does, nor that the money can buy whatever she wants, but is a little more
respect in this prospect of cultual and religious view a little too much too ask?
Is Japan still showing absolutely no respect to her Asian neiboughers?
Is the shrine only thing that makes Japan a bad girl in Asia?

2005-4-23 04:30 PM

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