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antimatter
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What would France do to restore its relation /w China?

From the papers, France is sending in the ex-PM try to restore its relationship with CHina. Obviously, France sees China as an important , strategic partner.

At the same, like many western countries, it has to pay lip service in support of Dalai Lamar.

I think CHina should forgive France and toning down it's anti-French stance even if it in public supporting Dalai if it can do the followings.

More JV and technology transfer to CHina.

*Right now, Airbus only assembles the airframes and building the wings body. Airbus should also allow building of engines and flight control system in China.

*Its ship propulsion system.

* Areva's nuke Power plant technology.

I say if France can do that, CHina should forgive and forget.

2009-2-12 02:32 AM

fredius
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Even if EADS and Dassault hold together a big part of this company, Airbus is still a consortium of European aviation firms.
I have simple questions...:
When China will have all the knowledge and technologies from the west, will it still be disposed to cooperate the way it does now?
Will China and overseas chinese rant even more and keep refuse to admit the support given?
Unlike of the US, European companies have been prone to accept technology transfer. But still, Europe suffer of critisism from China.
Will it be even worst for France in few years when China will get all technologies from Areva, Alstom, Airbus, Michelin, St Gobain, Thales, Alcatel, France Telecom, Veolia, Sagem, Lafarge....(and so many others)?
Tech. research and quality are the main power of the West, while China has mainly cheap labour and a very big army. What can help foreigners to believe in Chinese wisdom to manage the world when China would have taken everything from them?
Because of its recent ecnomic growth, China is already full of pride and quite intolerant about foreign critics, even preaching its system is much better while shamefully getting everything from the West. What can the world expect in the futur...? Getting punished as vassal countries anytime a problem is raised?

2009-2-12 01:19 PM

satsu_jin
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Unlike of the US, European companies have been prone to accept technology transfer. But still, Europe suffer of critisism from China.
Will it be even worst for France in few years when China will get all technologies from Areva, Alstom, Airbus, Michelin, St Gobain, Thales, Alcatel, France Telecom, Veolia, Sagem, Lafarge....(and so many others)?

You have a point here. Europe has done a lot to help improve China and thechnological transfer was never a hurdle. I think that this is widely acknowledged.

Because of its recent ecnomic growth, China is already full of pride and quite intolerant about foreign critics, even preaching its system is much better while shamefully getting everything from the West. What can the world expect in the futur...? Getting punished as vassal countries anytime a problem is raised?

When did China, and I'm talking about official China, not some forumites over here, preach that its system is much better than the West? I'm confident that you cannot find a single example for this allegation.

2009-2-12 01:29 PM

fredius
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by satsu_jin at 2009-2-12 13:29
Unlike of the US, European companies have been prone to accept technology transfer. But still, Europe suffer of critisism from China.
Will it be even worst for France in few years when China w ...

Yeah yeah, you are right...fortunately, the leaders are not the same than CD's forum users... I agree
But still, China looks so touchy, sensitive to critics, and really lack of auto derision. I never seen China and chinese making a mockery of their own attitude or own leaders.
I know it's mainly a mask used when dealing with foreigners, but...it would make China less unappealing if we could have a good laugh all together and dedramatize DL, hJ or Ta.wan.... because it isn't a drama! And because China is growing well.
Finaly, such attitude gives an impression of lack of confidence and of inappropriate pride. I just watched "little Britain USA" and I believe a show like this, made in CHina, would be cool...
Well, to conclude, I don't really like the tone of the original post.
This user wants to say that China should grant France the privilege to work once again together.
China has to admit that France had and still has an important role as a key partner in its technological improvment, and that both countries need each other...untill China finsh pumping all that France can give. What will happen after?

2009-2-12 04:41 PM

antimatter
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hey, afterall, Wen bypassed France on his recent trip to EU. And now, France is sending its ex-PM to CHina to mend the ties. Obviously, France got hurted because CHina is stopping order of airbus and nuke power plant. Before Wen came home, his delegates signed some huge business deal with UK and Germany and left France out like a cold turkey. and obviously it feels ostracized and jealous.

Right now, France is sending his ex-PM to CHina to mend the tie, it's obviously very much economic motivated.

So, from CHina POV, if France wants more economic deals, then it better pony up more tech transfer on new JVs. It has done damages to Chinese relationship, now it has made amends.

2009-2-13 03:40 AM

tradervic (Uncle Laowai)
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If France is wise...

... it will abandon the @$$kissing that reminds some of the interwar years with Germany and Italy. Then again, it has been a generation or two...

2009-2-13 03:45 AM

cestmoi (cestmoi)
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Stirring the pot...

QUOTE:

Originally posted by antimatter at 2009-2-12 02:32
From the papers, France is sending in the ex-PM try to restore its relationship with CHina. Obviously, France sees China as an important , strategic partner.

At the same, like many western cou ...

Are you telling me that inspite of the fact China has 1,5 billion people and at least 2000 years of history, we must rely on a relatively young country of 50 million to teach us science and technology? France languished for almost 800 years in the "Dark Ages" and was nothing until, spontaneously and inexplicably, the Renaissance happened.

Why?

Are you telling me that 1.5 billion Chinese do not have enough brain-power and will never rise to the challenge without the help of Europeans? Why can EAD design and build the Airbus series of planes to challenge Boeing, but China with 1.5 billion people cannot?

I suggest you can start by not being so petty minded. I think we Chinese can do anything we set our minds on.

2009-2-13 04:48 AM

tradervic (Uncle Laowai)
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Not to be contrite with our friend...

QUOTE:

Originally posted by cestmoi at 2/12/2009 02:48 PM
France languished for almost 800 years in the "Dark Ages"

... who lives outside of P.R. China - but, did China suffer about the same amount of time under the yoke of the various Mongol warlords?

2009-2-13 05:11 AM

fredius
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by tradervic at 2009-2-13 03:45
... it will abandon the @$$kissing that reminds some of the interwar years with Germany and Italy. Then again, it has been a generation or two...

Please, avoid this cliche, can you?

2009-2-13 09:40 PM

fredius
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by cestmoi at 2009-2-13 04:48

Are you telling me that inspite of the fact China has 1,5 billion people and at least 2000 years of history, we must rely on a relatively young country of 50 million to teach us science and t ...

You mean the QQ?
First of all, France is a 2000 yo country and even more, but I am talking about modern times, and there is no point to talk about this.
I am waiting for your list of the technological improvements/inventions given by China since 1800....go ahead man...
After I will give you the list of all the technologies given by the West that China is using now...
Let's do it simple...

2009-2-13 09:51 PM

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NYChinatown ( 陳青龍也是不知死)
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your mission, should you choose to accept it...

now, we have a new different buyer...ITALY

2009-2-13 09:51 PM

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fredius
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by NYChinatown at 2009-2-13 21:51
now, we have a new different buyer...ITALY

Yeah...go bother Italians a bit...please.
France already had the US boycott for a while (because France didn't su@@ well enough, and because of a clown: O'Reilly), and now, it's China.

Poor little France needs a break.... go bother Italians! France loves China!

2009-2-13 10:05 PM

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satsu_jin
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by fredius at 2009-2-13 23:05

France loves China!

2009-2-13 10:10 PM

#13

fredius
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by satsu_jin at 2009-2-13 22:10

France loves China!

I am not kidding...

2009-2-13 10:23 PM

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reportersh
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Fredius:

isn't it cruel that China is buying (emphasis here, not receiving without a cost) technologies at the cost of its dignity? Or, is it ethical that Europe sells much-needed technologies to China provided that the latter give up its own value? The developed world is ungrateful, China's fast industrialization is achieved at the cost of a liveable environment. Are you guys blind that China's suffering highest lung cancer rate in the world? 90% of Chinese lack drinking quality water. Northern cities including our capital are deprived of a blue sky. Chinese laborers gave up their family in inland cities to scratch a living in coastal cities as cheap labor supply, producing everthing the developed world needs. Sure, there are problems on Chinese side, in particular its policies such as investment incentives, tax breaks in a bid to lure foreign investment.

So don't sing high praises for the West!!!!!!! The west is not morally any better.

The developed world is taking advantage of the technological backwardness of the developing world. We are still being exploited here like 100 years ago. The only difference is that we are so "willingly" being exploited as China has a big population to feed, to clothe and to shelter. Whole-hearted help should be without conditions!!!

I can't be any angrier.

[ Last edited by reportersh at 2009-2-16 09:08 PM ]

2009-2-16 09:07 PM

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DeckardWill
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by reportersh at 2009-2-16 21:07
Fredius:

isn't it cruel that China is buying (emphasis here, not receiving without a cost) technologies at the cost of its dignity? Or, is it ethical that Europe sells much-needed technologies ...

The 'developed world' is simply responding to demand.

Market economy. Like it or not (and I don't), China is now a part of it.

2009-2-16 09:16 PM

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fredius
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QUOTE:

at the cost of a liveable environment

Have you seen any campaign against poluting companies?
Have you seen any respected quota set by the government? The local officials do there best to help local companies to avoid following them.
Have you seen any real campaign against Tabacco?
Don't blaim only the West, this is the responsibility of everyone to educate and set rules, including Chinese leaders.
For exemple, there is NO campaign to promote the use of the condom among the youth... and soon, you will once again rant against the West when official realist numbers of aids victims will finaly be released.

Moreover, I ask questions on the evolution of the relationship between China and small western countries in the futur, when technology transfer will be over. I DON'T "sing high praises for the West".
Can't you read the posts before wasting your time to write your rant?
I think that my question is legitimate.

2009-2-17 01:05 AM

#17

reportersh
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fredius:

" reading makes people wiser" that's a cure for your ignorance.  please read more before shamefully criticizing China.

We do have environment campaigns. It is part of our basic national policy and written in law since  late 1980s. You can criticize the enforcement of these policies are not strong enough.  Yes, environment is such a serious problem we are facing now.  That's because local government, under enormous pressure of feeding, clothing, employing such a big population, and Yes, because the lure to catch up the West is huge so therefore environment has been constantly a sacrifice of development.

what is quota you are talking about?  if you are referring to the export quota, in 2005, according to the timetable of China's  WTO entry, the decades long quota system was lifted already according to international practice.  And now trade authorities lowered export rebate in a bid to curb the rapid growth of such as textile export. FYI, China has export rebate system because the government levy tax that occurred during the production process. Rebate helps to lower the cost of products therefore able/possible to compete in the global market.

As for tabaco, we are following the international practice.  e.g. tabaco advertisements are banned just like every part of the world. Recently city of Shanghai totally banned smoking in all public places. Yes, you can still see ppl smoking but I've seen more public smokers in Europe. US is a example in terms of tabacco ban.

We do have a set of rules on everything, we even have manufacturing standard published on steamed buns.  But again, the enforcement of these rules is not strong enough.

As for AIDS, godness, i think the West can criticize everything China blundered but just not sex-related issues.  First of all, have you seen all the vendor machines selling condoms everywhere in major Chinese cities? Every year on AIDS Day, we have major campaigns both from governments and NGOs give away free condoms on the street, in college campus, in nightclubs etc? Do you know who brings  AIDS into China  in mid 1980s?  Do I have to remind you who are orgying in Thailand?  The westerners!!  It is the same people who are seducing Chinese girls with financial benefits in bars and nightclubs, trying to turn China into another sort of Thailand.  Finally? Do you know who are  educating Chinese to be more sexually open? Chinese is an otherwise very conservative society before opening up in 1978. Go to craigslist.com. see those sexually explicit pics posted by Westerners on its personal section, then tell me who is corrupting us.

Moreover, I' ve personally seen drug transactions outside a train station in Hamburg. I've witness with my own eyes a group of 7 young people taking drugs by sharing syringe needles outside a major fish market less than 200m away from the central government in Athens in BROAD DAY LIGHT!!!

Every country has a set of its own problems, isn't it?

Im not against the West. But I constantly hear harsh criticism from the West against China, that is something I can't accept.  Looking around, can you find any piece of your home that is  made in China?  TV, furniture, cheap textile etc. if the answer is yes, then It is dispicable of you, while enjoying cheap Chinese products but still criticizing China whatever she does.

Be grateful!! Just like we have always been gratefiul that the West set a good example for our development despite the ills such a learning process has brought to us.  In our newspapers, we discussed about cultural difference and explain why the West think and behave in a particular way.  We are told to learn from the West as long as it is good for China's development.  We have set a good example of cultural exchange and mutual emulation.

As for the relation between China and western countries, I maybe against many policies of our country, but I think China is right to punish those who did things to damage China. i.e.  France deserves the punishment if you are referring to this particular country. considering how much hi-tech products we've bought from France.  We can get them elsewhere, e.g. nuclear technologies from Russia. May I ask how French government will react if our leaders meet with La Corse separatist groups?  China deserves due respect.  What if we support the act of separating Northern Ireland from UK totally?

The West needs China, as evidenced by the warm reception our premier received during his recent visit to Europe.  (sure i can imagine the protest and demonstration at the same time) There will be new fields for future cooperation as the world develops.  Just like in 1980s when China began to open up more to the rest of the World, there was a great need of foreign-made industrial products, and now China has the production capacity of rudimentary products that the world needs.  Later, we start to buy western technologies.  I don't know what will come next, but Im sure there's new field for future cooperation, that's for sure.

BTW, Read your reply again, the "West lording over China" tone is so telltale. Where has gone the "Equality, Freedom and Love" spirit that the West has been preaching?

[ Last edited by reportersh at 2009-2-17 09:03 AM ]

2009-2-17 08:39 AM

#18

fredius
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QUOTE:

We do have environment campaigns. It is part of our basic national policy and written in law since late 1980s.

I know, there are environment campaigns.
Environment is the problem of everybody in China and in the world. I am talking about public campaigns to increase public awareness of this issue.
Also, I know that a lot of companies did beat the game by giving money to the right people.
The quotas I am talking about are polluting quotas. China has set wasting discharge quotas but failed to make them respected. You just have to drive along the Huan He to appreciate the disaster.

QUOTE:

First of all, have you seen all the vendor machines selling condoms everywhere in major Chinese cities

No... I haven't seen any...
Every country has a policy of TV advertisements to encourage the youth to use condoms. I haven't seen any communication campaign on CCTV, and I don't trust the teachers to talk about aids problems at school...

QUOTE:

Moreover, I' ve personally seen drug transactions outside a train station in Hamburg

Drugs are everywhere ... it doesn't mean you have to negate the problems in China... it would be a great mistake.

QUOTE:

considering how much hi-tech products we've bought from France. We can get them elsewhere, e.g. nuclear technologies from Russia.

No, you cannot get the 4th generation of nuclear plants or the same techs for railway and planes from Russia.

QUOTE:

May I ask how French government will react if our leaders meet with La Corse separatist groups

France would laugh. Corsica is a part of France since more than 200 years and France knows through referendum that the majority of the Corsican people are happy with that
. Also, never forget that Napoleon (1769-1821), who has been a major leader in France, was Corsican. It is clearly not comparable to T.bet....

QUOTE:

Do I have to remind you who are orgying in Thailand? The westerners!! It is the same people who are seducing Chinese girls with financial benefits in bars and nightclubs, trying to turn China into another sort of Thailand.

AMERICANS....did introduce prostitution in South east asia... not Europeans.
But man... be honest. There are prostitutes everywhere in China... and don't tell me that the main customers are foreigners. Also, if you go to Thailand, you will see that the Chinese who have enough money to travel there are not the last ones to enjoy orgying... same in Macao... and don't forget the er'nai system...you lie to yourself if you pretend that China can preach on this subject...

QUOTE:

BTW, Read your reply again, the "West lording over China" tone is so telltale

I do agree. But I was answering the pityful post of Cestmoi:

QUOTE:

France deserves the punishment

No the boycott against France was not legitimate. The attack Jin suffered in Paris was such an insignificant problem. She herself admited it. Chinese has judged France through 3 pictures, but none of you did actualy watched the whole movie...Jin aggressor wasn't french and has been arrested in 3 secondes...just check by yourself. Moreover, the Chinese flame troopers did give orders and did intimidate french authorities which is also unacceptable on the french territory. Regarding the DL, almost all leaders met the man. China choosed to target France and this is also unacceptable after such a long friendship.

QUOTE:

The West needs China

Yes, the West needs China. That's why my question was legitimate. What will happen when CHina will have no use of the West anymore? Will China be even more touchy when facing criticism? Will China deal with small European countries as vassal countries by dictate the attitude they should have?

2009-2-17 11:22 AM

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reportersh
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QUOTE:
First of all, have you seen all the vendor machines selling condoms everywhere in major Chinese cities
No... I haven't seen any...
Every country has a policy of TV advertisements to encourage the youth to use condoms. I haven't seen any communication campaign on CCTV, and I don't trust the teachers to talk about aids problems at school...
=======================================================================
That's the reason because you never bother to watch Chinese channels. Or can you read Chinese? such campaigns are almost a regular advertising on CCTV. Who cares a twisted soul like you? you dont trust anything.

Drugs are everywhere ... it doesn't mean you have to negate the problems in China... it would be a great mistake.
===================================================
So drugs are everywhere, therefore that is not a problem at all? or is it because it is already too serious therefore you give up completely?  What a logic!  Once again, you turn around the arrowpoint against China but understate the seriousness of your own problem.

No, you cannot get the 4th generation of nuclear plants or the same techs for railway and planes from Russia
==============================================================
Who are you speaking on behalf of Russians? Are you Vladmir Putin?

France would laugh. Corsica is a part of France since more than 200 years and France knows through referendum that the majority of the Corsican people are happy with that
. Also, never forget that Napoleon (1769-1821), who has been a major leader in France, was Corsican. It is clearly not comparable to T.bet....
======================================================================
Is that double-standard on territorial integrity?  That is downright hyprocrisy!  Tell me why TBT issue is not comparable to Corsica? But  I can forgive you being ignorant on this issue because TBT became a part of China almost at the same time when Corsica-born Napoleon ruled over France.

AMERICANS....did introduce prostitution in South east asia... not Europeans.
But man... be honest. There are prostitutes everywhere in China... and don't tell me that the main customers are foreigners. Also, if you go to Thailand, you will see that the Chinese who have enough money to travel there are not the last ones to enjoy orgying... same in Macao... and don't forget the er'nai system...you lie to yourself if you pretend that China can preach on this subject...
========================================================
Americans introduced prostitution, but Europeans are taking advantage of that.  See how many Europeans are clubbing in Thailand.  More Europeans than Americans perished in the 2004 Southeast asian tsunami. Why? More Europeans are visiting Thailand for sex adventures. And sex clubs are everywhere in Europe, in DOWNTOWN AREA.  But strip teasing clubs are located at hard-to-reach spots along highways in US cities.  And prostitution is ILLEGAL in many US states as opposed to the booming sex industry in Europe.

Do I have to remind you of the glorious Echangiste tradition that France boasts. Check any French porn website, see how much exchangiste advertisings there. And then let's discuss about er'nai thing.  Yes, Chinese are corrupted by the West regarding sexual indulgence.

[ Last edited by reportersh at 2009-2-17 12:29 PM ]

2009-2-17 12:17 PM

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