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seneca (seneca)
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"Foreigner" has a negative connotation? That may be the case for you, but I don't agree that everyone who uses the noun 'foreigner' is condescending, derogating or discriminating against non-nationals.
In most countries, the word 'foreigner' has no such negative undertones as you seem to be seeing.

2007-10-15 12:09 PM

#41

interesting (Steven Schreiber)
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Actually, it seems to as usage of the English word "foreigner" is out of favor and using someone's country of origin is preferred. "Foreigner" is seen as derogatory enough that most people won't use it and will instead say "from China" or "Vietnamese" or "he's not XXXXXX".

When people in the English-speaking world say "foreigner" it almost always seems to be in the context of "don't want them foreigners 'round here".

2007-10-15 08:47 PM

#42

emucentral (JB)
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by interesting at 2007-10-15 22:47
Actually, it seems to as usage of the English word "foreigner" is out of favor and using someone's country of origin is preferred......
When people in the English-speaking world say "foreigner" it almost always seems to be in the context of "don't want them foreigners 'round here". ...

Sorry Schreiber, but I don't agree that the word "Foreigner" itself has a negative connotation.

It may be used less in the English speaking world because nations such as ours have citizens from a wide range of ethnic groups. To refer to someone as a "foreigner" on the basis of physical appearance is more likely to be wrong than it is right.
I certainly don't see referring to a visiting non-Australian citizen as a "Foreigner" as an insult, and I wouldn't be insulted if a New Zealander referred to me as a foreigner while I was visiting that country.

Where I think it may be insulting, is to refer to, say, an Australian born person of foreign born parents, as a "Vietnamese", or "Greek", or whatever.

But then again, use of these words is largely dependent on the intent of the speaker.
Some people could make the term "honoured guest" an insult !

2007-10-16 04:24 AM

#43

sockmonkey (sockmonkey)
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I think it's not the term "laowai" itself that's annoying/derogatory; it's the way it's said. I imagine any term or phrase that is shouted at its intended recipient and followed with laughter and pointing would come to be taken as a negative thing. Who of us who has been in China hasn't ever experienced that "HALLOOOO LAOWAI!!!" followed by maniacal laughter and pointing? And who wouldn't get annoyed at it after a while?

2007-10-16 05:15 AM

#44

interesting (Steven Schreiber)
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Emu,

I think you're wrong. I don't see it used enough and instead see a lot of constructions used to take its place, even when the discussion is clearly about people from foreign countries. That seems to me a sign that it is seen as a somewhat disreputable term to use.

2007-10-16 06:58 AM

#45

chinadaily (chinadaily)
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Longzhou and seneca:

glad that you two enjoy living and working in Guangzhou, a southern boom city (where 3 of my high-shcool classmates settle and work too).  appreciate and feeling a little bit honored (as host) that you call Guangzhou and China your home.

Just like other major cities in other countries, Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Chongqing, Shenzhen, etc, are becoming "interntional" cities, and it is natural and a wonderful thing to see more & more foreigners (of different languages and colors) to come and work in China, a fact reflects China is going outward, open its warm arms to our foreign friends, and also a fact that this once old, closed Oriental Middle Kingdom (right?) is truly integrated to the world.  Chinese people thank your choice to work here, and your efforts, together with us,  to build a harmonious & well-off living community!

as to "Lao Wai", some of the Chinese migrant workers & urban peddlers call foreigners during streets (sometimes followed with laughter), I think, because these Chinese feel curious of their different looking, and they seldom see blonde foreigners before.  Certainly, the majority of urban Chinese residents, like me, won't call expats "Lao Wai" anymore, simply because we see tooo many of them every day.

Does the word "Lao Wai" have negative connotation, and linguistically discriminating or derogating, not at all.  I once heard an old grandama (could be in her 80s or 90s) calling two pretty-looking foreign blonde girls "Lao Wai", with a grin, and I didn't find the grandma discriminating.  she is actually admiring their beauty ( I deem).

2007-10-16 08:37 AM

#46

caringhk (O Sweetie&Me go laojia. ..)
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QUOTE:

Originally posted by tmphgt at 2007-10-12 23:12

A bit like you then, the illiterate Malaysian

So u AGREED they are so stupid............

U shld not blame

me for my English unless U wanna blame Brother John,Edmund who live life like saint.........

2007-10-16 11:10 AM

#47

zglobal
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Interesting.

There is nothing whatsoever derogatory when Chinese people use the term foreigner or laowei.
That's just a fact and impossible to know unless you live here.

2007-10-16 12:48 PM

#48

cyberspook (Spook)
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so the Chinese government is considering bringing in restrictions to prevent westerners from obtaining a specific level of employment , inference being sensitive positions in Chinese society , that's very funny I thought China has been successfully doing that for hundreds of years pre PRC and post PRC , let's count how many westerners there are working in the higher echelons of the Chinese Government , the score so far is 0 , now what pray tell is the reasoning behind this new found revelation ? and is it at all possible for someone to articulate that reason without it sounding absolutely racist.

2007-10-17 09:26 AM

#49

deebogg
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Stop all these ----

QUOTE:

Originally posted by seneca at 2007-10-9 13:03
I welcome those restrictions.
There are basically two kinds of laowais I wish to be screened out this way:

Those that come here to do crooked "business", i.e. laundering of money or ...

Mr/Ma Seneca,It seems you are out of your sense.What does these problems have to do with developing contries?Hey,I dont know where you come from but to tell you the truth there are more American and Europeans than any other nationalities here in China that came here with nothing.IF you go to meggie Youth hostel in Shanghai, you will find many of them owing the hotel and looking for teaching job to settle their hotel bills.Are American also from developing contries,you should think very well before you start writting rubbish here.

2007-10-17 07:26 PM

#50

tradervic (Uncle Laowai)
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Xenophobia?

QUOTE:

Originally posted by cyberspook at 2007-10-16 19:26
so the Chinese government is considering bringing in restrictions to prevent westerners from obtaining a specific level of employment , inference being sensitive positions in Chinese society , that ...

Xenophobia can mean an ill omen for China - especially at a time when P.R. China is trying to pick up the where Imperial China and R.O. China left off - bringing the Chinese people to the forefront of the world. If Chinese people to enjoy the fruits of their labors, and the labors of others from around the world - then the Xenophobia must be kept to a minimum.

2007-10-17 08:49 PM

#51

seneca (seneca)
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cyberspook and deebogg,
you two fellows should first digest your breakfast before you let off steam!

Yes, cybie, there are uncounted WESTERNERS here, as well as people from developing nations that do not break rules or inconvenience their local hosts.
I said "uncounted" because no one has evber quantified the good foreign residents or visitors among the total of all non-Chiense.
But what I meant, and I think expressed in unambiguous language, is that an EVER GROWING number of desperadoes and opportunists are flooding into China and taking advantage of a more liberalised China.

I tried to avoid naming nations or nationalities, and I will try my best to steer the same course. But it is increasingly difficult...

As for citizens from developing nations, those that engage in illegal activities typically resort to the practices described by me before. Drugs come from Burma, Afgthanistan or Columbia; the "mules" used to transport them typically hail from Latin American countries. As for money laundering, ever heard of the infamous Nigerian '419' scam? Why is the number '419' prefi9xed with 'Nigeria"??? There is the answer...
I also mentioned law-breaking westerners; they seldom dabble in drugs or laundering money, true. Let's not try too hard to find how they are riding roughshod over national laws anywhere in the world; China simply is the same victim that other countries are where opportunism beckons.
Maybe whites are too smart to engage all in the same crooked ways; imagination and personal inclinations lead them in various directions... Anyway, I have nevfer heard of Nigerian pedophiles, for example just as I have never heard of Kiwi con artists that talk Hongkongers into buying a suitcase full of banknotes covered in black ink (hence my creative use of the label "money laundering", you guess how it works!). I have met dozens of Africans doing the latter, and I have - luckily! - never met any pedophiles - but read or heard of dozens, all of whom hailed from a western country.

Also, it's always people from certain nations that believe the world is theirs and they can go anywhere without carrying enough cash on them.
These people arrive in China, or in any other country with a liberal immigration policy, without adequate funds but an ardent desire to make money there.
Perhaps "ardent desire" is inappropriate - "ardent need" would be more accurate.

There are still countries that restrict access to their their territory to visitors that can demonstrate they have the financial means to support themselves; China evidently is too open and allows virtually anyone to come, no matter whether they have the money to survive a week here on their own. They don't even have to show a return ticket...

2007-10-17 11:16 PM

#52

lijing040021
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foreigner

i can't successfully send my message online ,let me try again.

forgive me,thank you!

2007-10-24 12:02 AM

#53

ready1022
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good news always brings surprise and joyfulness . to restrict the employment  of foreigners is truly
advisable due to the crisis or issue of emloyment in china has cuased more and more insceurity and danger to social development and harmony.  in china , chinese residents should be considered in priority
rather than foreigners
sometimes, those exotic people are arrogant no matter what they are skillful or foolishful. they really rules
the local staff  without humanity .
I hate being ruled by those evil creature

2007-11-15 11:42 AM

#54

pwoon48783
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I agree with the restrictions. I am American, and Americans have these rules, too. Foreigners can't work here without a permit, and certain jobs, like defense and other "national security" jobs are prohibited to foreigners (but there are always exceptions, like , there's no American that can do the job - but then citizenship is then rushed so they can get the job).

2007-11-15 12:47 PM

#55

victor471842
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As China opens itself more wildly to the outside world,more and more foreigners are willing to come to China for tour or for other things.It is necessary to draft a regulation and guide foreigners' activities

2007-11-15 10:40 PM

#56

tradervic (Uncle Laowai)
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Could be worse... take Japan's Attitude Right Now

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071113zg.html

Gaijin card checks spread as police deputize the nation

By DEBITO ARUDOU

Special to The Japan Times

In the good old days, very few Japanese knew about Alien Registration Cards — you know, those wallet-size documents all non-Japanese residents must carry 24/7 or face arrest and incarceration.

Back then, a gaijin card was only something you had to show a bored cop doing random racial profiling on the street.

Legally, in fact, it still is. According to the Foreign Registry Law (Article 13), only officials granted police powers by the Justice Ministry can demand to see one.

But in its quest to make Japan the worlds safest country again (without similarly targeting Japanese crime) and to stem hordes of illegal foreigners (even though figures for overstayers have been falling since 1993), the government has recently deputized the entire nation. From now on, foreigners must endure frequent gaijin-carding at work. Not to mention passport checks and copying of personal ID documents.

This open season on gaijin, as well as on terrorists and carriers of contagious diseases (which somehow also means the gaijin), has gone beyond fomenting the image that non-Japanese are merely untrustworthy. It has created policy creep. Gaijin-hunters in their zeal are stretching or breaking established laws.

Backtrack: After years of alleging heinous foreign crime and terror, the government first deputized the public in 2005. Laws regarding hotels were revised to require passport numbers and photocopies from all foreign tourists (i.e. people without addresses in Japan).

However, police immediately stretched the law, telling hotels to demand passports from all foreigners. Some hotels threaten refusals if the gaijin doesnt cough up his card (www.debito.org/olafongaijincarding.html ).

Now — as of Oct. 1 — the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare has chipped in, deputizing workplaces. Under the Employment Policy Law (Koyo Taisaku Ho — see the MHLW Web site ), all employers (jigyo nushi) hiring, firing, or currently employing non-Japanese (except Special Permanent Residents and diplomats) must check their visa status, verifying that they are neither overstaying nor working outside their visa parameters.

This means filing a report at Hello Work, the MHLWs unemployment agency. Information on all foreign staff, including name, date of birth, gender, nationality, visa status and expiration date, confirmation that all work is permitted under the visa, and employers name and address, must be provided — on pain of penalties up to ¥300,000.

Proponents of the law, claiming it will support the rehiring and better administration of foreign workers, might well deter employers exploiting overstayers under the table. But in practice, the policy stretch has already begun.

For example, Regular Permanent Resident immigrants — who have no visa restrictions placed on their employment and cannot possibly overstay — must also be reported.

Another issue is that the law merely requires employers check the visa status of their foreign staff. There is no requirement for foreigners to physically hand over any personal documents. Yet several people have contacted me to say employers have demanded both their gaijin card (which for ID purposes works the same as a passport) and their passport for photocopying.

Furthermore, these checks are already not limited to your main employer or visa sponsor. I have received reports that any gaijin payment requires photocopied visa verification. In one case for a sum as low as ¥500! Yet my legal counsel confirmed with the MHLW that checking isnt required for part-time work.

Conclusion: If hunting foreigners means tracking every yen they earn, this new and improved gaijin card checkpoint system goes far beyond the cop on the corner. It even voids the gaijin card. Whats the point of its existence if verification necessitates passports too?

The justifications for this new system are these: Youve got to make sure foreigners arent working outside of their official Status of Residence. As we have reported, even taking a quick part-time job can be a visa violation in certain cases.

Photocopies are apparently necessary because employers need proof on file if they get nobbled by the cops. (As if the police wont ask the foreign staff for their original documents if a raid actually happens.)

Moreover, sometimes gaijin cards and passports differ in detail, like when the visa status changes in the passport, but the bearer neglects to report it to the Ward Office.

But if all these loopholes needed closing, they should have been encoded in the law. They werent, so demanding anything beyond a visual display of your gaijin card is policy overreach.

Now the floodgates are open: Unrelated places, such as banks, cell phone companies, sports clubs and video stores now illegally require gaijin cards for any service, even when other forms of ID — such as drivers license or health insurance booklet — would suffice for Japanese.

Whats next, fingerprinting?

Japan needs more lawyers, or at least more lawyerly types. Anyone who reads the actual laws will in fact find natural checks and balances. For example, even if the cops issue their classic demand for your gaijin card on the street, under the Foreign Registry Law (Article 13), you are not required to display it unless the officer shows you his ID first. Ask for it. And write it down.

And believe it or not, under the Police Execution of Duties Law (Article 2), cops arent allowed to ask anyone for ID without probable cause for suspicion of a crime. Just being a foreigner doesnt count. Point that out.

As for gaijin-carding at hotels, all you have to do is say you have an address in Japan and you are in the clear. Neither foreign residents nor Japanese have to show any ID. The hotels cannot refuse you service, as legally they cannot deny anyone lodging under the Hotel Management Law (Article 5), without threat to public morals, possibility of contagion, or full rooms.

And as for gaijin-carding by employers, under the new law (Article 28) you are under no obligation to say anything more than what your visa status is, and that it is valid. Say youll present visual proof in the form of the gaijin card, since nothing more is required.

If your main employer forces you to have your IDs photocopied, point out that the Personal Information Protection Law (Kojin Joho Hokan Ho) governs any situation when private information is demanded. Under Article 16, you must be told the purpose of gathering this information, and under Article 26 you may make requests to correct or delete data that are no longer necessary. That means that once your visa status has been reported to Hello Work, your company no longer needs it, and you should request your info be returned for your disposal.

Those are the laws, and they exist for a reason: to protect everyone — including non-Japanese — from stretches of the law and abuses of power by state or society.

Even if the Foreign Registry Law has long made foreigners legally targetable in the eyes of the police, the rest of Japanese society still has to treat foreigners — be they laborer, customer, neighbor or complete stranger — with appropriate respect and dignity.

Sure, policymakers are treating non-Japanese residents as criminals, terrorists, and filth columnists of disease and disorder — through fingerprinting on arrival, gaijin-house ID checkpoints, anonymous snitch sites, DNA databases, IC chips in gaijin cards and now dragnets through hotels and paychecks.

But there are still vestiges of civil liberties guaranteed by law here. Know about them, and have them enforced. Or else non-Japanese will never be acknowledged or respected as real residents of Japan, almost always governed by the same laws as everyone else.

The Japan Times: Tuesday, Nov. 13, 2007

Image Attachment: fl20071113zga.jpg (2007-11-16 03:35 AM, 110.99 K)

2007-11-16 03:35 AM

#57

amers4china (hillbilly on the run)
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seneca (seneca)
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Status Offline  I welcome those restrictions.
There are basically two kinds of laowais I wish to be screened out this way:

Those that come here to do crooked "business", i.e. laundering of money or pushing drugs.

As I consider the employment situation of 10-12 million of the 20-30 million  Chinese immigrants in the United States and the nature of the businesses and activities involved,  then read this particular relpy, I have to conclude this to be most definitely the funniest post I've ever read -  this is definitely a keeper for posterity - thank you ever so much.

2007-11-17 01:31 AM

#58

tradervic (Uncle Laowai)
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The Funny Side of Xenophobia

QUOTE:

Originally posted by tradervic at 11/15/2007 01:35 PM
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071113zg.html

Gaijin card checks spread as police deputize the nation

Ah Xenophobia - a quick way to find scapegoats.

Image Attachment: ca20071104gm.jpg (2007-11-17 03:41 AM, 56.21 K)

2007-11-17 03:41 AM

#59

evergorgeous
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good policy, it shows the coming of greater China

2007-11-17 04:39 PM

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