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Subject: Can democracy work in China?
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demfighter
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Can democracy work in China?
This is a very long post. I suggest you read ALL the lines to fully understand this.
Democracy is non-existent in China. The reason is that China has never had a tradition of democracy. Well, until democracy was adopted in Europe, the europeans didn't have the tradition of democracy aswell.
I have studied China during a 4 week course about China having an expert in China as my teacher, so even though I am a forigner not from China, and never have been in China, I know a lot about your culture.
And I also know that at the moment you read the words "Europe" or "European" your first thought was:
"Barbarians. I am not interested in those. They have no culture. They are just barbarians, they are outside of civilization."
Am I right? This is the general view on Europeans in China. Non-chinese = barbarians.
Non-chinese, especially Europeans, are not of any interest for China. Except that they want money. They invest in China and the forign investment in China made China a high-tech country today. But except for the europeans investing in China, we are not of any interests. Our ideals and culture is of no interest. Because we are just barbarians, and the real culture is in China. China is the center of the World.
This is the general opinion in China. But I think you should get just a litle interest into the European culture, because it is not as barbarian and uncivilized as you may think.
To fully understand why democracy is not present in China and why only very few chinese citizens wants to discuss the concept of democracy, you need to understand western (european) culture.
In this post (or article, as I would call it) "Europe" or "Europeans" refers to what stems from Europe. North America (The US, Canada) and Old Europe. When I talk about Europe, I am mainly talking about Western Europe:
UK/Great Britain.
Germany.
France.
Denmark/Sweden/Norway.
Italy.
Spain.
France, UK and Spain discovered America. I know some chinese emperor or general discovered it about 72 years before Columbus, but it was mainly Spain and UK that made America into what it is today.
There are many prejudices on Europe and European culture. The one that comes into my mind is that most asians think that europeans only think about money. Money, money, money. Profit. This is simply wrong. Capitalism is simply just the way we trade. And trade is not our only occupation here in Europe.
Questioning everything is what characterize European culture and mentality most.
Europeans ask questions about EVERYTHING. The only period in European history where we did not ask questions and where philosophy and science and all the old europeans ideals were lost, were during the middle ages, that spanned from 500-1300 AD. The term "middle ages" was adopted by the historians and philosophers (1300-1600 AD) and refer to the years after the fall of the Roman Empire, and before the end of the middle ages, when the europeans began to re-discover the ancient culture and ideals of the Roman Empire and the Greek philosophers. Renainssance means "re-discovery" or "re-birth".
Europeans ask questions. Nothing is taken for granted. In China however, when the Emperor said something, you obey his orders. Even if you could actually kill the Emperor, nobody wanted to do so.
In Europe on other hand, everybody has been sceptics. Opinion had been silenced many times, but this was done through fear. And only a handfull of the european king/queen or emperor's best friends of families were around him or her.
But Europeans always wanted answers for everything. And adopting new theories about the origin of everything. Some were brutal and totally wrong while other theories were humanitarian. During the Renaissance and the Reformation (1600-1770's AD) the Europeans thought about the causes of death and illnesses, and why some were unlucky. They thought that it could be witches, who had special abilities, and the only way they could get rid of the witches was to burn them at the stake - alive! During the times of witchhunting, many eldery women were blamed and accused for witchcraft. So questioning everything brought unfairness to Europe - but it also stopped it! Because the Europeans kept studying and searching for answers and found more rational and logical explations for the weather, illnesses and death and everything.
Europeans questioned, and will always question everything. We want to know "why". WHY does the government want us to do that? WHY is this thing illegal? WHY is that illegal?
In China you rarely ask questions. If the authorities say so, "it is probably OK". But this is not how europeans think. They want to know why. And this is a good thing, because it prevents corruption: When the people wants to know WHY the government acts like it does, the government is somehow forced to explain to the people why they do it.
The government is forced to educate the children in the schools to understand the concepts of everything.
And for the school system there are also huge differences:
In Chinese schools and universitites, the students are only taught about facts. In European schools, the students are taught fact AND they are taught to seek it on themselves. We do have school books, but the schools always gives the students as many sources of information as possible and teaches them how to sort them out. This means the students are not given one point of view, but thousands. They see the problem from different perspectives.
Because of that, and because the schools also allow discussions (discussions on politics and the environment is strongly encouraged by the teachers, and in fact required by law in some schools, i.e in Denmark).
When the people ask questions and have to seek out information on their own, the people also gets more knowledge. They understand things better than if they are only taught something from one source of information.
This diversity of information and the desire to seek information and answers also makes the Europeans prone to be democrats. They want to decide for themselves what they think is best. Because there can be many solutions to a problem.
Democracy cannot work in China as long as the people does not have the desire to seek out information - and you need to loosen the censorship of information in China. Teach the students in the schools and universities on how to find and sort out information. Then democracy can work. And it works good - look at the scandinavian countries!
2007-6-6 10:11 PM
#1
archie_78
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Ahem... awaiting the onslaught!!!
2007-6-6 10:16 PM
#2
taikor
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You write like a 12 year old
2007-6-6 10:25 PM
#3
demfighter
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QUOTE:
You write like a 12 year old
I am sorry about that. Please forgive me and try to understand my points anyway.
Thank you.
2007-6-6 10:29 PM
#4
zglobal
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Your writing is just fine demfighter. I guess your from Europe and English is not your native tongue.
I'm not sure who your teacher was that taught you everything about China in 4 weeks. I guess he was about 80 years old. China has changed a lot in the last 30 years.
Let me put it this way.
In China. they probably don¡¯t ask a lot of questions and don't get answers.
In Europe, you ask a lot of questions and also don¡¯t get answers.
Maybe it would be better to save yourself the bother.
YOU DO NOT HAVE A DEMOCRACY IN EUROPE.
You know I really get sick and tired of the democracy dribble out of Europe, America and others.
It is not a democracy.
Call it an alternating two party dictatorship if you like.
or. perhaps an elected dictatorship, but.....please.....don¡¯t call it a democracy.
Democracy is not where you vote for one of only two parties (other don't count because don't have the power to win), and then those two parties do whatever they like. That is not democracy and never will be.
2007-6-6 10:41 PM
#5
taikor
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I understand your points perfectly. It's pathetic.
QUOTE:
~Democracy is non-existent in China
~Non-chinese = barbarians
~the people does not have the desire to seek out information
~Teach the students in the schools and universities on how to find and sort out information
It's not my problem, really. The problem lies in your lack of knowledge and understanding of China and your attitude of trying to lecture instead of
learning
.
2007-6-6 10:49 PM
#6
demfighter
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QUOTE:
It's not my problem, really. The problem lies in your lack of knowledge and understanding of China and your attitude of trying to lecture instead of learning.
I have learned this about china from an expert.
He is a professor and knows everything about China. He told me that China see non-chinese as barbarians.
2007-6-6 11:06 PM
#7
northwest
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QUOTE:
Originally posted by
demfighter
at 2007-6-6 23:06
I have learned this about china from an expert.
He is a professor and knows everything about China. He told me that China see non-chinese as barbarians.
Ahemm... you only hear from an individual, a professor for several weeks and then claim to know about China?
You don't feel it's too simplified?
2007-6-6 11:33 PM
#8
toksave
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Yes, archie. It's going to be bloody.
2007-6-7 12:23 AM
#9
toksave
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And it's not too late to change the tread now!!
Save yourself, fighter.
2007-6-7 01:23 AM
#10
changabula
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QUOTE:
Originally posted by
demfighter
at 2007-6-6 22:11
This is a very long post. I suggest you read ALL the lines to fully understand this.
Democracy is non-existent in China. The reason is that China has never had a tradition of democracy. W ...
Let me ask one question:
Do you understand yourself?
I mean that you have probably lived on earth for more than 10 years.
Point I am trying to make is:
It may be presumptious to say you understand a complex dynamical system of more than a billion individuals after a 4 week course.
Its like me saying that I understand the whole universe after studying Einstein's General Relativity after a 4 week course.
ANYWAY, I AM GETTING GODDAMN SICK OF PEOPLE CREATING NEW THREADS WHEN THERE ARE ALREADY A LOT DEALING WITH THIS THEME!
[
Last edited by changabula at 2007-6-7 04:32 AM
]
2007-6-7 04:29 AM
#11
sockmonkey
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Demfighter, while I appreciate the point you're trying to make, I agree with the people who are suggesting that you can't "know a lot about China" after only a 4-week course. I majored in Chinese in college--took multiple classes on Chinese history and culture and language, even lived abroad for 9 months in Beijing, and while I think I have the general theme of China down, there are still things I don't know. After 4 weeks with an expert, I'm sure you've learned a lot, but nothing you're saying is really all that new. Just something to keep in mind.
2007-6-7 05:31 AM
#12
emucentral
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QUOTE:
Originally posted by
demfighter
at 2007-6-7 00:11
I have studied China during a 4 week course about China having an expert in China as my teacher, so even though I am a forigner not from China, and never have been in China, I know a lot about your culture.
And I also know that at the moment you read the words "Europe" or "European" your first thought was:
"Barbarians. I am not interested in those. They have no culture. They are just barbarians, they are outside of civilization."
...
Demfighter,
You may mean well, but your post does appear to be rather shallow.
You've made far too many generalisations, and I think it is rather unfair and inaccurate to taint all Chinese people with the brush of ignorance and racism which your post implies.
There are many millions of Chinese who do not think of non-Chinese as "barbarians", there are many millions of Chinese who know very well the good and bad things about countries in Europe and the rest of the world.
Unfortunately not all of them post in this forum so we mostly see the views of some ignorant racists here.
Don't let these people make you think that Chinese people are any less interested in democracy & human rights, or are incapable of critiquing their own political system and leadership.
Cheers
JB
2007-6-7 06:26 AM
#13
nosferatu
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Answer the questions and educate rather than insult the poster...
While emucentral makes a vaild point regarding the generalizations used by demfighter, the immediate reaction of several who replied (taikor, zglobal, northwest, changabula and sockmonkey) are to critique the manner in which the points were made or questions were asked.
Is this the typical mode of education in China? To insult one who is seeking to gain knowledge and establish a dialogue?
If you feel someone is doesn't understand the Chinese culture and needs to consider different viewpoints, you should provide that person the information or guide him/her to the what you consider are accurate materials he/she can use.
Resorting to a statements that one can never understand China who has not been raised in that culture, or simply stating he/she does not possess the knowledge to engage in an intelligent discussion is the last resort of someone too lazy to defend their own position.
Demfighter tried to make the point that more citizens of China need to learn to start questioning so-called 'truths' that they have been presented with in the schools they were educated in. This will help them make social, political and economic improvements much more quickly.
2007-6-8 12:34 AM
#14
northwest
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QUOTE:
Originally posted by
nosferatu
at 2007-6-8 00:34
Is this the typical mode of education in China? To insult one who is seeking to gain knowledge and establish a dialogue? ...
I disagree with this. He asked a question and then answer it himself based on '4 weeks observation' and made geenralization that Chinese educational system are flawed. This is not for discussion, but to point out Chinese inferiority compared to Europeans. He already made the answer and conclusion himself... purely on '4 weeks observation'.
QUOTE:
If you feel someone is doesn't understand the Chinese culture and needs to consider different viewpoints, you should provide that person the information or guide him/her to the what you consider are accurate materials he/she can use.
By the time being, I think he should stop making conclusion.
2007-6-8 12:47 AM
#15
zuraffo1981
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I think demfighter is a lot more intelligent than other westerners on this board.
At least he learn how to blindly believe in "expert" or "authority" which is the right way to enlightenment. LOLOLOL
And Americans *ehemsockmonkeyehem*, before your great nation stop pillaging other countries and start paying the debt you owe to the Asian countries (most notable China and Japan), I don't want to see any pretentious post from you on this board.
Just remember that the USA is morally and economically bankrupt and the only reason it still exists is because of its crazy nuclear arsenal. And a citizen of a rogue state has no credibility nor right to comment on other nations. Zilch.
2007-6-8 01:18 PM
#16
caringhk
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QUOTE:
Originally posted by
demfighter
at 2007-6-6 23:06
I have learned this about china from an expert.
He is a professor and knows everything about China. He told me that China see non-chinese as barbarians.
You are ONLY but 4 weeks OLD..........12 yrs is too much......
Could you pls quote that Professor.........???
2007-6-8 01:37 PM
#17
taikor
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nosferatu:
Answer the questions and educate rather than insult the poster
He wasn't asking. The thread was about how to make democracy work as northwest had pointed out: "
He asked a question and then answer it himself
".
And making crass generalization is a gross insult to the Chinese people rather than the other way round. Nobody's insulting him. People are taking issues with his statements and the way he present his thoughts.
[
Last edited by taikor at 2007-6-8 01:40 PM
]
2007-6-8 01:38 PM
#18
rollerskater
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I agree with zglobal
why it so called democracy is because despotic government existed before.
everything has two opposite sites. if despotic government didnt appear before,then DEMOCRACY isnt DEMOCRACY. it is despotism.
and I think what we called democracy nowadays is fake..it is anohter despotism for two parties..
2007-6-8 01:43 PM
#19
nosferatu
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Reply #18 --- taikor's post...
demfighter's entire post was a question, hence the title, "Can democracy work in China?"
He then went on to present his side/opinion. This form of discussion/debate encourages a response to present another side of the argument, which involves providing reasons why points first made might be incorrect.
Rather than just telling the poster,
"It's not my problem, really. The problem lies in your lack of knowledge and understanding of China and your attitude of trying to lecture instead of learning. "
Educate him/her by presenting your knowledge and understanding of China.
Who is to say the ideas/concepts demfighter learned in a Western nation is wrong and you are correct if we do not even know what ideas/concepts you believe in or were taught?
2007-6-9 12:11 AM
#20
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