Subject: A REMARKABLE ANCIENT CHINESE MAP --“General Chart of the Integrated World” [Print This Page]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 08:22 AM Subject: A REMARKABLE ANCIENT CHINESE MAP --“General Chart of the Integrated World”
Please read, moderator(s), before taking action:
Please read this note and understand the reasons why I started this thread a few days ago in Changing China forum. I could understand why you merged my thread A REMARKABLE ANCIENT CHINESE MAP --“General Chart of the Integrated World” into mencius' thread "China 1418 map claiming Americas?" if you think the topics are close or even the same. I did read that thread and I agree that my series of posts have also answered a number of questions raised in that thread. But even that, it's not a violation of any forum rules to start a new thread to answer an existing one when it comes to important points.
But more importantly, please try to understand my entry point of the thread is totally different from mencius'. His thread has been focusing on who should claim the land of America, which I, or China, have no interest at all. After all, all these ideas of 'China may lay claims of America' come from the western media. What I intended to talk about is the MAP. I hoped to follow this discovery story unfolding as it goes, I hoped to collect more scientific information surrounding this MAP, and I hoped to call forumites to talk about European sea exploration history, and of course, Zheng He's too, and to compare the media reports. I didn't see it was a good environment to conduct such discussions on mencius' thread. So, I started a new one.
I hope you could understand now. And I am going to put the thread in Talk to China Daily forum, hoping this is the right place as I am still trying to get familiar with the forum new customs. If you insist to move my thread around, please move it under joeching's thread 'AMERICA NEEDS TO BE REDICOVERED, AGAIN' in China, U.S. & Americas forum where at least I could get a decent atmosphere for serious discussions.
Thank you.
A REMARKABLE ANCIENT CHINESE MAP --“General Chart of the Integrated World”
This remarkable ancient Chinese map emerged recently is not just about who first discovered America(s), its implication goes far beyond. It opens door to revolutionize the world history of sea exploration.
The scope and precision of the map are truly amazing. It, if proven to be authentic, demonstrated that Chinese had already understood the world in extraordinary details and depth through Admiral Zheng He’s sea exploration in Ming Dynasty.
China successfully explored the world but didn’t exploit it. This is an undeniable FACT.
Please note that the news story about this remarkable map was first reported by The Economist, not by BBC. What BBC did was, at best, it enlarged the picture of the map taken by The Economist, or at worst, it cut off a critically important historical evidence of the picture – a note written at the lower left hand corner of the map showing the map is a 1763 copy of a map dated 1418 -- falling right in the time frame of Admiral Zheng He’s sea exploration between 1405 and 1435.
The original report from The Economist, which had been on Google’s cluster news list of this subject for more than two days, but mysteriously went missing today. Obviously, the news is too important and shocking. I am sure many experts are scrutinizing the development. So far Chinese news media has been very cautious – only China Daily published a copy of an article from Timesonline.co.uk. American news media is completely silent, but British media showed enormous interest. I feel necessary to post the original article in case Google deletes it from its search engine.
The next post is the original report from The Economist. Enjoy the reading. And witness this extraordinary story unfolding.
Original posting date: 2006-1-16 05:50
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 08:24 AM Subject: China beat Columbus to it, perhaps
Chinese cartography: China beat Columbus to it, perhaps
Jan 12th 2006
From The Economist print edition
An ancient map that strongly suggests Chinese seamen were first round the world
THE brave seamen whose great voyages of exploration opened up the world are iconic figures in European history. Columbus found the New World in 1492; Dias discovered the Cape of Good Hope in 1488; and Magellan set off to circumnavigate the world in 1519. However, there is one difficulty with this confident assertion of European mastery: it may not be true.
It seems more likely that the world and all its continents were discovered by a Chinese admiral named Zheng He, whose fleets roamed the oceans between 1405 and 1435. His exploits, which are well documented in Chinese historical records, were written about in a book which appeared in China around 1418 called “The Marvellous Visions of the Star Raft”.
Next week, in Beijing and London, fresh and dramatic evidence is to be revealed to bolster Zheng He's case. It is a copy, made in 1763, of a map, dated 1418, which contains notes that substantially match the descriptions in the book. “It will revolutionise our thinking about 15th-century world history,” says Gunnar Thompson, a student of ancient maps and early explorers.
The map (shown above) will be unveiled in Beijing on January 16th and at the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich a day later. Six Chinese characters in the upper right-hand corner of the map say this is a “general chart of the integrated world”. In the lower left-hand corner is a note that says the chart was drawn by Mo Yi Tong, imitating a world chart made in 1418 which showed the barbarians paying tribute to the Ming emperor, Zhu Di. The copyist distinguishes what he took from the original from what he added himself.
The map was bought for about $500 from a small Shanghai dealer in 2001 by Liu Gang, one of the most eminent commercial lawyers in China, who collects maps and paintings. Mr Liu says he knew it was significant, but thought it might be a modern fake. He showed his acquisition to five experienced collectors, who agreed that the traces of vermin on the bamboo paper it is written on, and the de-pigmentation of ink and colours, indicated that the map was more than 100 years old.
Mr Liu was unsure of its meaning, and asked specialists in ancient Chinese history for their advice, but none, he says, was forthcoming. Then, last autumn, he read “1421: The Year China Discovered the World”, a book written in 2003 by Gavin Menzies, in which the author makes the controversial claim that Zheng He circumnavigated the world, discovering America on the way. Mr Menzies, who is a former submariner in the Royal Navy and a merchant banker, is an amateur historian and his theory met with little approval from professionals. But it struck a chord: his book became a bestseller and his 1421 website is very popular. In any event, his arguments convinced Mr Liu that his map was a relic of Zheng He's earlier voyages.
The detail on the copy of the map is remarkable. The outlines of Africa, Europe and the Americas are instantly recognisable. It shows the Nile with two sources. The north-west passage appears to be free of ice. But the inaccuracies, also, are glaring. California is shown as an island; the British Isles do not appear at all. The distance from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean is ten times greater than it ought to be. Australia is in the wrong place (though cartographers no longer doubt that Australia and New Zealand were discovered by Chinese seamen centuries before Captain Cook arrived on the scene).
The commentary on the map, which seems to have been drawn from the original, is written in clear Chinese characters which can still be easily read. Of the west coast of America, the map says: “The skin of the race in this area is black-red, and feathers are wrapped around their heads and waists.” Of the Australians, it reports: “The skin of the aborigine is also black. All of them are naked and wearing bone articles around their waists.”
But this remarkable precision, rather than the errors, is what critics of the Menzies theory are likely to use to question the authenticity of the 1418 map. Mr Menzies and his followers are naturally extremely keen to establish that the 1763 copy is not a forgery and that it faithfully represents the 1418 original. This would lend weighty support to their thesis: that China had indeed discovered America by (if not actually in) 1421. Mass spectrography analysis to date the copied map is under way at Waikato University in New Zealand, and the results will be announced in February. But even if affirmative, this analysis is of limited importance since it can do no more than date the copyist's paper and inks.
Five academic experts on ancient charts note that the 1418 map puts together information that was available piecemeal in China from earlier nautical maps, going back to the 13th century and Kublai Khan, who was no mean explorer himself. They believe it is authentic.
The map makes good estimates of the latitude and longitude of much of the world, and recognises that the earth is round. “The Chinese were almost certainly aware of longitude before Zheng He set sail,” says Robert Cribbs of California State University. They certainly assumed the world was round. “The format of the map is totally consistent with the level of knowledge that we should expect of royal Chinese geographers following the voyages of Zheng He,” says Mr Thompson.
Moreover, some of the errors in the 1418 map soon turned up in European maps, the most striking being California drawn as an island. The Portuguese are aware of a world map drawn before 1420 by a cartographer named Albertin di Virga, which showed Africa and the Americas. Since no Portuguese seamen had yet discovered those places, the most obvious source for the information seems to be European copies of Chinese maps.
But this is certainly not a unanimous view among the experts, with many of the fiercest critics in China itself. Wang Tai-Peng, a scholarly journalist in Vancouver who does not doubt that the Chinese explored the world early in the 15th century (he has written about a visit by Chinese ambassadors to Florence in 1433), doubts whether Zheng He's ships landed in North America. Mr Wang also claims that Zheng He's navigation maps were drawn in a totally different Chinese map-making tradition. “Until the 1418 map is scientifically authenticated, we still have to take it with a grain of salt,” he says.
Most forgeries are driven by a commercial imperative, especially when the market for ancient maps is booming, as it is now. The Library of Congress recently paid $10m for a copy of a 1507 world map by Martin Waldseemuller, a German cartographer. But Mr Liu says he is not a seller: “The map is part of my life,” he claims.
The consequences of the discovery of this map could be considerable. If it does indeed prove to be the first map of the world, “the history of New World discovery will have to be rewritten,” claims Mr Menzies. How much does this matter? Showing that the world was first explored by Chinese rather than European seamen would be a major piece of historical revisionism. But there is more to history than that. It is no less interesting that the Chinese, having discovered the extent of the world, did not exploit it, politically or commercially. After all, Columbus's discovery of America led to exploitation and then development by Europeans which, 500 years later, made the United States more powerful than China had ever been.
edited to add original link: http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5381851
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-18 08:46 AM ]
Image Attachment:
map.jpg (2006-1-18 08:46 AM, 24.51 K) / Download count 434
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9224
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 08:48 AM Subject: matt605: The map is very good for its time.
Chinese maps are more like cognitive schemas than scale drawings. They're intended to be general depictions, not navigational charts that we might see today.
It's a fairly accurate map for its time. Look at North America. The map shows that the rivers don't connect across the land, but that there is a land mass at the polar cap and a Hudson Bay. The Mississippi River is shown wrongly, but does show the Ohio and Missouri Rivers that branch from it. California appears as it will after the next big earthquake. Florida appears as it will after the next big hurricane season. Panama appears where it lies between continents and is the appropriate width in comparison to the continents it links.
It's not drawn to scale, but it's not bad for what it is. I wonder what the islands are east of America and west of Europe. They would be Bermuda, Iceland, and the British Isles I guess, but most modern depictions of the UK places it clearly as part of Europe, not easternmost America. Maybe that's a bit futuristic too.
Last edited by matt605 at 2006-1-15 05:44 PM
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 08:50 AM Subject: BBC map
BBC didn't include the important note mentioned above, not even in its smaller version.
check for yourself:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4609074.stm
Here is its enlarged version:
Image Attachment:
BBC map.jpg (2006-1-18 08:50 AM, 92.56 K) / Download count 389
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9225
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 08:51 AM Subject: A Detail of The Map
Mapped out … a detail of Liu Gang's map. Australia is bottom right; the small islands to the east are believed to be New Zealand.
Photo: Natalie Behring
More reading:
Map wades into New World discovery fight
http://smh.com.au/news/world/map ... /1137259944370.html
'Ancient' map could prove China found America first by Jane Macartney (timesonline.co.uk)
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/eng ... /content_512297.htm
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-16 07:22 AM ]
Image Attachment:
details.jpg (2006-1-18 08:51 AM, 43.64 K) / Download count 353
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9226
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 08:53 AM Subject: Why Google deleted The Economist report from its' listing?
Check out:
http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl= ... /1137259944370.html
This is the current list:
Old map found in a Shanghai shop may rewrite history's voyages of ...
The Age, Australia - 9 hours ago
The controversial chart, said to be an 18th century copy of a 1418 map made long before Europeans "discovered" the New World. By Mary-Anne Toy, Beijing. ...
Map wades into New World discovery fight
Sydney Morning Herald, Australia - 9 hours ago
Mapped out … a detail of Liu Gang's map. Australia is bottom right; the small islands to the east are believed to be New Zealand. ...
Map of the world may prove the Chinese beat Columbus to America
Independent, UK - Jan 13, 2006
By Leonard Doyle, Foreign Editor. Could it be that America was discovered, not by Columbus, but by a Chinese admiral who was not ...
'Ancient' map could prove China found America first
Times Online, UK - Jan 13, 2006
A MAP has come to light that may support the thesis that a Chinese eunuch admiral discovered America decades before Christopher Columbus. ...
China map claims America discovery
Monsters and Critics.com, UK - Jan 13, 2006
BEIJING, China (UPI) -- If a soon-to-be-published Chinese map is accepted, it was a Chinese admiral, and not Christopher Columbus, who would get the credit for ...
China map lays claim to Americas
BBC News, UK - Jan 13, 2006
A map due to be unveiled in Beijing and London next week may lend weight to a theory a Chinese admiral discovered America, and not Christopher Columbus. ...
Map may show Chinese explorer discovered America
Ireland Online, Ireland - Jan 13, 2006
An ancient map unveiled next week may prove that it was a Chinese eunuch who discovered America and not Christopher Columbus, it was revealed today. ...
Chinese 'first to discover America'
Scotsman, United Kingdom - Jan 12, 2006
AN ANCIENT map set to be unveiled next week may prove that it was a Chinese eunuch who discovered America and not Christopher Columbus. ...
Old map may show Chinese discovered America before Columbus
NewKerala.com, India - 5 hours ago
Beijing: A Chinese seafarer may have discovered America long before Columbus, according to an old map that is to be presented in Beijing and London on Monday. ...
NZ UNI TESTS MATERIALS OF MAP SHOWING CHINESE EXPLORATION
TMCnet - Jan 14, 2006
(New Zealand Press Association Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge)Wellington, Jan 15 NZPA - New Zealand researchers at Waikato University are conducting tests on the ...
Chinese admiral beat Columbus to America, says ancient Ming map
Webindia123, India - Jan 14, 2006
Believe it or not, Spaniard Christopher Colombus was not the first man to discover America. According to a 15th century map on display ...
'AMERICA FOUND BY CHINESE'
Mirror.co.uk, UK - Jan 13, 2006
AN ancient map may prove it was a Chinese eunuch who discovered America and not Christopher Columbus, it was revealed today. Columbus ...
Ancient map may show Chinese discovered America
IrishExaminer.com, Ireland - Jan 12, 2006
By Rachel Williams, New York. AN ancient map set to be unveiled next week may prove that it was a Chinese eunuch who discovered America ...
He’s the man who discovered America
The Statesman, India - Jan 14, 2006
LONDON, Jan. 14. — Could it be that America was discovered, not by Columbus, but by a Chinese admiral who was not only a eunuch ...
'Ancient' map could prove China found America first
China Daily, China - Jan 13, 2006
By Jane Macartney (timesonline.co.uk). A map has come to light that may support the thesis that a Chinese eunuch admiral discovered ...
China’s claim on America
Mumbai Mirror, India - Jan 14, 2006
Beijing: IF a map to be unveiled in Beijing and London next week is to be believed, it was a Chinese admiral and not Christopher Columbus who discovered America ...
Map may show how Chinese admiral beat Columbus to the New World
Unison.ie, Ireland - Jan 13, 2006
A MAP may support the thesis that a Chinese admiral discovered America decades before Columbus. Bought by Liu Gang, a Chinese lawyer ...
Map of the world may prove the Chinese beat Columbus to America
Kazinform, Kazakhstan - Jan 13, 2006
BEIJING. January 14. KAZINFORM - Could it be that America was discovered, not by Columbus, but by a Chinese admiral who was not ...
China map claims America discovery
United Press International - Jan 13, 2006
BEIJING, Jan. 13 (UPI) -- If a soon-to-be-published Chinese map is accepted, it was a Chinese admiral, and not Christopher Columbus ...
_______________________
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-16 06:31 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 08:55 AM Subject: I would like to see more maps ....
Moreover, some of the errors in the 1418 map soon turned up in European maps, the most striking being California drawn as an island. The Portuguese are aware of a world map drawn before 1420 by a cartographer named Albertin di Virga, which showed Africa and the Americas. Since no Portuguese seamen had yet discovered those places, the most obvious source for the information seems to be European copies of Chinese maps. -- from The Economist
It would be of great interest to evalute the maps used in those European sea explorations. I am sure some of them can be found on the internet. I would be more than happy to see them...
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-16 06:41 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 08:57 AM Subject: iluv2fish: We once again...
....come in second to the mighty China.
Will your goverment seek a claim to the USA? If the USA was discovered by China is it owned by China?
What is it you want from us?
original posting date: 2006-1-16 09:25 AM
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 08:59 AM Subject: Can you widen your thought a little bit, fish?
Can't you see that I am very much in the mood of collecting ancient maps? Isn't this an extraordinary discovery story to study?
It's not just about China.
If you insist to talk about land claiming, please put native Indians ahead of us. I am not interested in it. Instead I am interested in scientific reasoning and logical analysis.
If you have time, please do some online search and present me with some maps.
I am waiting....
Original posting date: 2006-1-16 09:43 AM
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 09:01 AM Subject: greendragon: Mr. Fish...America is no.3
Europe is no. 1, China is no.2 and USA is no.3....
Aiyoh...don't anyhow put words into Mr. Shanhuang's mouth....
let me do that honour....
ha ha ha
Original posting date: 2006-1-16 13:38
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 09:03 AM Subject: matt605: Map featured on CNN
CNN showed the story about the map this afternoon. I didn't watch the story, but I saw the video footage with the sound off.
As I was watching, it occured to me that the Mississippi River is wrongly placed about where Virginia would be because the map makers may have been confused about the location of the Delmarva (DELMARVA= DELeware, MARyland, VA - Virginia) penninsula compared to Florida penninsula. So if they decided that there was only one penninsulla, and it was where the Delmarva penninsula is, then the Mississippi River would be in Virgina, where it is on the map.
Original posting date: 2006-1-17 07:24
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-18 09:12 AM Subject: Map revealed in Beijing
A report from Charlie Gidney of China Daily
Map bolsters America-discovery claim
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/eng ... /content_512871.htm
Photo:
A journalist looks at a map which is said to be an 18th century copy of the 1418 original, showing both North and South America in unusual details, during a news conference in Beijing January 16, 2006. [Reuters]
Image Attachment:
map in Beijing.jpg (2006-1-18 09:12 AM, 40.55 K) / Download count 305
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9227
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-18 11:41 AM Subject: Yeah, this is definitive proof of Menzies' theory
According to the current issue of "The Economist," the map is now ready for scientific dating at a university in New Zealand.
That will tell us if the map was truly a Seventeenth Century copy of the 1418 map.
But the definitive proof is not the exact age of the material used, but the content of the messages written on the map itself.
Five different sophisticated Western cartographers have now declared their conviction that the map is genuine.
A map made by a German cartographer in 1509 fetched 10 million USD from the U.S. Library of Congress. This map based on a 1418 map is therefore worth a lot of money but the owner (Liu Gang) has said that it is not for sale.
The glaring error about this map is that California was depicted as an island, and the distance from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean was ten times the real distance. Australia was obviously not in its right location and the size was too small. Yet its presence shows that Chinese seamen were the first to have gone to that continent.
The strangest part of the map was the absence of the British Isles.
That goes to show that the Brits are truly "out of this world" as far as recognizable bipeds go.
The map also showed that the Northwest passage was ice-free. The relative shapes and sizes of the continents are amazingly accurate making Menzies' claim that Zheng He's ships had sailed to all the continents in the trips he and his vice-admirals took between 1405 and 1435 more believable than ever.
Will follow closely with the situation, especially the dating of the map in New Zealand, the results of which are supposedly to be revealed in February of this year.
[ Last edited by wchao37 at 2006-1-18 11:47 AM ]
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-18 11:54 AM Subject: Does anyone know where jungoffender is?
I'll like to hear what he has to say about the map. He is studious enough in these matters to give us a good opinion.
Author: sonntag Time: 2006-1-18 02:38 PM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by wchao37 at 2006-1-18 11:41
According to the current issue of "The Economist," the map is now ready for scientific dating at a university in New Zealand.
That will tell us if the map was truly a Seventeenth Centu ...
There are more pictures that make this topic so interesting.
Is there any reason why the evidence presented so far should not be accepted? Chinese scholars seem to doubt the theory most.
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-1-18 02:56 PM Subject: Reply #15 sonntag's post
You can be sure he was here. He stepped into Malacca.
We have temples dedicated to his name.
And now we have his statue at the famous Portuguese/Dutch/English place.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-18 03:13 PM Subject: Reply #16 caringhk's post
Yeah I know what you are talking about. I had not been to Malacca but I had been to Kuala Lumpur and Penang. I heard there are temples in Malacca dedicated not only to Zheng He but also his shipmates.
However, Zheng He's exploits are all the more remarkable because it showed that the Chinese in his time knew the world was round and planned their trips accordingly.
An interesting question would therefore be: if the earth is round what holds people and substance to the surface of the earth if they didn't have knowledge about Newtonian laws of gravitational pull?
The fact that they knew there was an ice-free passage in the Nordic Sea all the way to the Arctic Zone and the clear defintion of the Bering Strait separating North America from Asia was indeed the most remarkable aspect of the journeys.
I fully expect newer revelations of his trips as more evidence comes in.
If China is poor and weak these days, would anyone believe any of this even if a ton of evidence is staring them in the face?
Not a chance.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-18 03:17 PM Subject: Reply #15 sonntag's post
Yes, Chinese scholars such as the one from Vancouver, Canada have openly expressed their doubts about the claim that Chinese discovery of California predated that of Europeans.
But facts speak louder than words and the testimony of the five seasoned archeologists provides the best supportive evidence as to the validity of the claims by Menzies.
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-1-18 03:34 PM Subject: Reply #17 wchao37's post
I think Adm Zheng He knows about gravity.
He was using the compass at that time.
There is the North.
And he is a great reader of the stars position even before GPS was invented.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-18 03:54 PM Subject: Reply #19 caringhk's post
Are you equating polar magnetic fields with gravitational pull according to the theories of Newtonian physics?
I think the Mongols in their world conquest could have been the source of information about much of the known world especially in reference to the ice-free Baltic waters.
1418 -- the year when the original map was drawn -- was only three years away from Emperor Yong Le's cerebration of the completion of the Forbidden City with its legendary 999 rooms.
Author: hunggu Time: 2006-1-18 05:14 PM Subject: -
Chinese scholars appear to doubt the most.
Maybe it's not doubt.
The Chinese scholars are just being cautious. The matter subject to intense microscopic study. Even the slghtest possibility that the map may be trumped up will make a mockery of Chinese, and held up as another sign that the Chinese today are supremacist and ever ready to claim the world as their patrimony.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-18 05:19 PM Subject: Reply #21 hunggu's post
True, caution is the best policy. In this case the Chinese scientist is not an archeologist.
Author: mike88 Time: 2006-1-18 10:34 PM
hai! I am a new comer , i am a student.
Author: albion Time: 2006-1-19 09:08 AM Subject: Errant nonsense
The map is almost certainly fake. All "scientific analysis" can prove is that it was or was not made in 1763!
This whole concept was first stirred up by Gavin Menzies's "1421: The Year China Discovered America" (2002), a book that all reputable historian -- Chinese and Western -- treat as a joke.
Indeed, the only historiamn who even thinks its worth a rebuttal is Robert Finlay in his article, "How Not to (Re)Write World History: Gavin Menzies and the Chinese Discovery of America", published in The Journal of World History. The full text is here:
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/15.2/finlay.html
Among other things, Finlay writes:
"Menzies flouts the basic rules of both historical study and elementary logic. He misrepresents the scholarship of others, and he frequently fails to cite those from whom he borrows.
He misconstrues Chinese imperial policy, especially as seen in the expeditions of Zheng He, and his extensive discussion of Western cartography reads like a parody of scholarship.
His allegations regarding Nicolò di Conti (c. 1385–1469), the only figure in 1421 who links the Ming voyages with European events, are the stuff of historical fiction, the product of an obstinate misrepresentation of sources. The author's misunderstanding of the technology of Zheng He's ships impels him to depict voyages no captain would attempt and no mariner could survive, including a 4,000-mile excursion along the Arctic circle and circumnavigation of the Pacific after having already sailed more than 42,000 miles from China to West Africa, South America, Australia, New Zealand, and the Philippines (pp. 199–209, 311)."
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-19 09:09 AM Subject: Any photographs of the Beijing and London conferences?
Those two maps have generated so much interest that even the two conferences in London and Beijing must have something unique -- le's hear about them if anyone has any information.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-19 11:42 AM Subject: Reply #15 sonntag's post
QUOTE:
Is there any reason why the evidence presented so far should not be accepted? Chinese scholars seem to doubt the theory most.
Good question. So far I haven't seen any hard evidence that can discredit this map as not an authentic 1763 map. So the next question would be, "can we trust the important note on the lower left hand corner saying it's a copy of a 1418 map?". In my view, historians should accept such evidences unless they can prove otherwise. It may have been well accepted if not because this map has such tremendous impact.
Yes, we need to be careful, so we are all waiting for the carbon dating data to come out. But I am quite sure that the result would be positive. Liu Gang is not just an amateur collector, he is a lawyer and he has conducted a lot study as shown in the next post. Also, the media would not report with such enthusiastism if it has the slightest problem. Besides, China probably have already conducted the test many times before sending it to New Zealand.
Why Chinese scholars have different opinions? I wish joeching is here to talk about it. My impression is that Chinese scholars are always debating. Still, we want to look at the hard data.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-19 11:46 AM ]
Author: quietrequiem Time: 2006-1-19 11:56 AM Subject: Discovering America
Discovering America is not only a chronological event, but a personal and deeply transforming event. Admiral Zheng might have discovered the geographic placement of the Americas way before the Spanish and Portuguese even ventured to birth the adventure. You Chinese are having a hard time accepting America's impact on your economical, political and social evolution. Today is the matter.
requiem
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-19 12:02 PM Subject: Yes, a must-see map! You can zoom in to see the exquisite details
QUOTE:
Any photographs of the Beijing and London conferences? -- wchao37
Open the LINK !!!
http://www.1421.tv/pages/maps/1418.htm
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-19 12:13 PM ]
Author: quietrequiem Time: 2006-1-19 12:15 PM
QUOTE:
-Where is the original map
-How many years has this COPY been in circulation
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-19 12:16 PM Subject: Liu Gang's article on the 1418 map
The real discoverer of the world -- Zheng He
I. Introduction
For more than five hundred years, the historians and scholars have always deemed that during the period from 1405 to 1432, the emperors of China Ming Dynasty sent Zheng He, who was also called as “Sanbao Eunuch” or “Ma Sanbao” to lead his fleet to voyage in the South Asia seas, Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf for seven times, and visit more than thirty countries and regions in Asia and Africa. The farthest point reached by Zheng He’s fleet is on the east coast of Africa, near the equator.
It is commonly believed that Zheng He’s voyages were indeed the outstanding navigation in his era, and his exploits are well know and documented. Even though considered as one of the ocean voyage pioneers in human history, Zheng He’s reputation is much lower than the following European voyage explorers:
Bartholomeu Dias sailed by Cape of Good Hope in 1487 and is called as the first man in the world who sailed round the south point of African continent;
Christopher Columbus arrived at Bahamas of America in 1492 and is extolled as the forerunner to discover the American continent;
Ferdinand Magellan led his fleet in September of 1519 to begin the marine expedition and circumnavigate the global. After three years voyage, his crew come back to the start point in Europe. As his fleet completed around world voyage, Ferdinand Magellan won the crown of the world discoverer. Since he was considered as the first one who discovered the channel between Atlantic Ocean and Pacific Ocean, such channel is named after his first name for more than 500 years.
In recent years, the “world records” made the said three European explorers have been doubted by someone. In March of 2003, Mr. Gavin Menzies, who is a retired British naval officer, proclaimed his astonishing viewpoints: the persons mapped the first chart of world were Chinese, Zheng He’s fleet arrived at America before Christopher Columbus and is the first one circumnavigated the global in human history. He further claimed that Chinese discovered the world in 1421. These viewpoints shaken the sets of the historians and the scholars, who make their respondences to Mr. Gavin Menzies in many different ways. Some show their supports, some shake their heads, some feel uncertain, and some call Mr. Gavin Menzies as a crank. Even the Chinese academic circle is at a loss. Many Chinese historians and scholars believe that Mr. Gavin Menzies’ assertion is only based on his conjecture without substance. Someone even say that Mr. Gavin Menzies is not qualified to make the statement about Zheng He’s voyages, since he can not read Chinese and has no adequate knowledge about the Chinese history.
Like Mr. Gavin Menzies, I am not a professional historian. But I have a hobby for more than 12 years to collect and study the old Chinese maps. I share the same view with Mr. Gavin Menzies about Zheng He’s fleet being the first one circumnavigated the global in human history. However, I must point out that one of Mr. Gavin Menzies’ viewpoints is not correct, which is about when Zheng He’s fleet discovered the whole world. The time when Zheng He discovered the new continents and charted the whole world was within the period from 1415 to 1418, rather than in the year of 1421. My support to Mr. Gavin Menzies and modification to his conclusion is not come from the nationalism emotion, and is based on my study of an old Chinese map, as well as other related historical records.
II. An Old Chinese Map
In the spring of 2001, I purchased an original old world map in Chinese, which is finely illustrated on a bamboo paper (59.6cm x 41.7cm) with ink and colors. In the upper right-hand corner of the map, there are six Chinese characters, which means “general chart of the integrated world”. The statement written by the mapmaker on the lower-left corner of the map says that “(this chart is) drawn by Mo Yi Tong, a subject (of Qing Dynasty) in mid-autumn of the year of Qianlong Gui Wei (1763) by imitating a world chart made in the sixth year of Ming Yongle (1418) showing the barbarians paying tribute (to Ming Dynasty)”. A plat of Chinese compass is also drawn in the upper middle of the map. In addition to the said Chinese characters and illustration, there is an important note written on the upper left-hand corner saying, “The descriptions without red circle are not the notes of the original chart (i.e. 1418 general chart of the integrated world)”. Such note means that the descriptions with red circle are the original notes on the world chart drawn in 1418 showing the barbarians paying tribute. Note 1
I was puzzled when my eyes fell upon the old map, which depicts all continents of the world, as well as the Antarctica, North Pole and Greenland. The general appearance of the world on the map is not the only thing strike my eyes. On the American Continent and Australia Continent, the original notes with red circle are described, and mountains and rivers also lay there. It is very clear that many depiction and descriptions on the old map are not consistent with the common knowledge about New World discovery. The Chinese drew an accurate world map in the year of 1418? How the cartographer of this 1418 world chart showing the barbarians paying tribute knew the geographical knowledge about the American Continent and Australia Continent, as well as the mountains and rivers on the continents long time before such continents was discovered?
Is it a fake map? I started to question on the authentic of the map. The trace of vermin on bamboo paper and de-pigmentation of ink and colors indicate to me that the map was made at less more than one hundred years ago. Did Mo Yi Tong, the mapmaker wanted to cheat someone when he imitated 1418 world chart showing the barbarians paying tribute?
It was certainly not the case. One Chinese character before the map marker’s autograph means, “Subject”. For a long time in China, including Qing Dynasty, people could call themselves as “Subject” only in front of the Emperor or his house, otherwise will be considered as being revolting. Therefore, such Chinese character indicates that the map was supposed to be resented to Qianlong, the Emperor of China at that time. As he wrote the note on the upper-left corner saying that “The descriptions without red circle are not the notes of the original chart”, Mo Yi Tong should know that if he made cheat on the map he could be sentenced to death by the Emperor. Furthermore, several depiction and descriptions on the map should be out of Chinese knowledge at that time. Such as the outline of the Antarctica land, this had not been discovered until 1820.
After careful study on the map I became confident of its authentic. But what was the source of 1418 world chart showing the barbarians paying tribute? A note recorded on the Pacific Ocean of the map about Zheng He’s voyages provides a clue for me to find out the source. The Chinese characters and wording of the note are the same as the description about one of Zheng He’s seven voyages recorded in an ancient book, except the name of Zheng He being Ma Sanbao. The author of the ancient book was Fei Xin, one of the officials who accompanied Admiral Zheng He during his voyages in the early medieval period.
Born in a family of humble scholars in the Kunshan district of Suzhou prefecture of China, Fei Xin joined military service and was chosen to accompany Zheng He during four voyages to the Western Oceans (the Chinese historians believe that they should be referred to the Pacific and Indian Oceans), which respectively made during the period of 1409-1411, 1412-1414, 1416-1418 and 1431-1433. After his return from the fourth voyage he started to write a book describing the various peoples and local customs he saw in the barbarian countries or learned from others. His writing was completed in 1436 and title of the work was “The Marvelous Visions of the Star Raft” (“Xingcha Shenglan” in Chinese). The description in the book about the court of Bangla (Bengal) is an important source to reconstruct the history of medieval Bengal.
The book originally was divided into two volumes and did not refer to any map or chart. The researches of the Chinese historians reveal that, soon after the book was printed someone else wrote another version based on the original one. Note 2 The second version consists of four volumes, and its introduction section says that “… collecting charts and incorporating those into this book”. Since both versions had been reprinted lots of times following one by another, no chart or map is contained in the extant copies.
The description recorded in the book about Fei Xin’s third voyage with Zhen He states that “In the thirty-three year of Yongle Emperor (1415), following the emissary, Eunuch Zhen He (in the note on map it is “Eunuch Ma Sanbao”) and other persons (I) went to those barbarian countries including Bangla and arrived at Hormuz as well as other barbarian countries, the imperial edicts were preached and rewards were granted. In the thirty-six year of Yongle Emperor (1418) (I) came back to Beijing.” It is very clear that this description substantially matches the note on the map. This indicates that 1418 world chart showing the barbarians paying tribute should be one of those charts incorporated into the second version of “The Marvelous Visions of the Star Raft”, or someone copied one of the charts recorded in the second version of “The Marvelous Visions of the Star Raft” before such version was lost.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 04:33 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-19 12:18 PM Subject: Continue..
III. Misunderstanding on Zheng He Voyages
The original descriptions on 1418 world chart showing the barbarians paying tribute convince me that the extent of Zheng H’s voyages have been misunderstood for more than five hundred years. Before the discussion about such extent, it is useful to explain the Chinese concept of “Western Oceans”, which term was used by Zheng He and the relevant ancient books. The historical records show that the term of Western Oceans originated in Song Dynasty (960-1279) of China, together with the term of Eastern Oceans. Since the birth of the twins, both of them had had no clear extents for long time. In Ming Dynasty (1368-1644), lines were gradually drawn up for the two terms. “The Marvelous Visions of the Star Raft” and another ancient book named as “Notes on the Barbarians in Western Oceans” (printed in February of 1434) narrated that Sumataansche (an ancient country located on west-north corner of Sumatra Island) was the mean of reaching Western Oceans. An ancient book printed in 1617 and named as “Research in Western and Eastern Oceans” narrated that Brunei was the far end of Eastern Oceans and also the starting point of Western Oceans; therefore it was the finishing line for both of Western Oceans and Eastern Oceans. These records reveal the extents of Western Oceans and Eastern Oceans during Ming Dynasty. At that time, the Chinese concept of Western Oceans refers to the maritime space starting from the west-north corner of Sumatra Island and ending at Brunei. This extent includes the Indian Ocean, Arabic Sea, Atlantic Ocean and Pacific Ocean. Correspondingly, the term of Eastern Oceans refers to the sea area including China Southern Sea, East China Sea and Japanese Sea.
Starting from a long time ago, Chinese tradition and philosophy has been promoting equilibrium and symmetry. But, why in Ming Dynasty the extent of Western Oceans was so big, meanwhile Eastern Oceans was so small? What was the basis for the people of Ming Dynasty to draw up the lines for Western Oceans and Eastern Oceans? Several Chinese historians based on their research have given the answer to those questions. Note 3These Chinese historians believe that the extents of Western Oceans and Eastern Oceans were determined in Ming Dynasty based on the courses of voyage carried by the wind and current flowing. It was called as Western Course if the courses of voyage carried westwards by the wind and current flowing. In this circumstance the area reached were included into Western Oceans. Accordingly, the areas reached by the courses of voyage to east direction were included into Eastern Oceans. A modern cart showing current flowing in the Oceans will corroborate with the said view.
The extent of Western Oceans described in 1418 general chart showing the barbarians paying tribute tallies with the concept of Western Oceans in Mind Dynasty. In this chart, the Indian Ocean and North Atlantic Ocean are respectively named as “Small Western Sea” and “Western Sea”. The Chinese characters of “Western Oceans” are slightly bigger than the characters of “Small Western Sea” and “Western Sea”. This indicates that “Small Western Sea” and “Western Sea” were part of “Western Oceans”. Furthermore, the note about Zheng He’s voyages recorded on the Pacific Ocean of the chart means that the Pacific Ocean is also within the extent of “Western Oceans”.
After the term of “Western Oceans” being explained, the questions should be asked about a Chinese phrase of “Zheng He to Western Oceans” (in the Chinese “Zheng He Xia Xi Yang”), which was originated in Ming Dynasty and since then had been repeated in the Chinese ancient books. Dose the extent of “Western Oceans” means that Zheng He and his feet circumnavigated the globe? The following original notes with red circle on the chart provide the answer to us.
The note on the region of Alaska says, “The people living in this area are similar to Qidan and Mongols, who feed on fish.” It is clear that the note talks about Eskimo.
The note on western America states, “The skin of the race in this area is black-red, and the feathers are wrapped around their heads and waists. They are anthropophagous people.” This note relates to Indians in North America Continent.
There are two notes on South America, which respectively are “There are cities there built with huge stones, and called as the stone cities”, and “The people there believes in the religion called as ‘Balaka’, human being is used as sacrificial victim, and people pay obeisance to fire”. The first note here is relevant with the Inca Empire, since the cities of the Inca Empire were usually built on mountain or plateau with huge stones. The second note relates to the ancient Peru. One of the native cultures in the ancient Peru was named as “Paracas”.
The note recorded on Australia says, “The skin of the aborigine is also black. All of them are naked and wearing bone articles around their waists. Those people also have anthropophagous habitude. ”
The note on North Africa is, “There is a huge city here built with stones, the dimension of stones can be compared to those used by tomb of Qin Dynasty Emperor.” Note 4
The note on South Africa states, “The skin of people here is like black lacquer. Their teeth are white, their lips are red and their hairs are curled. ”
The note on Western Asia is: “All people of the cities in west of Jiayu Pass believe in Islam and Muhammad. Their temples are built with clay and stones, and walls of the temples are decorated with gemstone. People who want to go into the temple should take bath and change their clothes, such custom also exit in our middle kingdom, and it is so funny. ”
The note on the region between Asia and Europe says, “The shape of people eyes are round and within deeper eyeholes. Their heads are wrapped with scarf, their clothes are loose and their trousers are long. Women here must wear veils when going out, otherwise will be punished. ”
The note on Eastern Europe says, “People here mostly believe in God and their religion is named as ‘Jing’”.
The above notes, as well as the general delineation of the Antarctica, North Pole and Greenland depicted on the chart, reveal a civilization had been lost for about six hundred years. “Zheng He and his fleet discovered the America Continent before Columbus was even born. They also circumnavigated and charted the globe, a century before the Europeans staked claim to having done so.” Note 5 The footprints of Zheng He and his sailors were left around the whole world, but soon be covered by dusty.
You may ask me: If it was true that Zheng He’s fleet circumnavigated and charted the globe, why no ancient book, epigraphy, chart and map contains the relevant information? My answer is that the information did recorded in several ancient books, epigraphy, charts and maps, but they have hidden themselves from the historians for a long time.
edited to highligh
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 04:36 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-19 12:21 PM Subject: continue...
IV. Evidence hid in Chinese Epigraphy and Ancient Books
Stone Inscription
Before the seventh voyage (1431-1433), Zheng He erected two carved stone tablets respectively at the Temple of the Celestial Spouse at Liu Jia Port near the mouth of the Yangtze River, Jiang Su Province and the Temple of Changle Nanshan in Changle County, Fujian Province. The first two sentences of second carved stone tablet, named by the historians in a shortened form as the Changle Epigraphy, have been interpreted and translated as follows:
“The Imperial Ming Dynasty unifying seas and continents, surpassing the three dynasties even goes beyond the Han and Tang dynasties. The countries beyond the horizon and from the ends of the earth have all become subjects and to the most western of the western or the most northern of the northern countries, however far they may be, the distance and the routes may be calculated.”
The above is not appropriate understanding and translation. These two sentences should read as “The Imperial Ming (Dynasty) has unified seas and universe, surpassing the first three generations (of Ming Emperors) as well as the Han and Tang dynasties. None of all countries has not become subjects, even those at the remotest corners. (The place) in the west of the Western Region of the Imperial Ming and in the north of the northward extension from the Imperial Ming are so far away, however the distance to them can be calculated by mileage.”
The term of “Western Region” originated in Han Dynasty, and at that time this term referred to the region between Chongling (now in northwest area of Xinjiang Autonomous Region) and Dunhuang (in Gansu Province). In Tang Dynasty, the extent of “Western Region” became much bigger and was extended to the Mediterranean Region and North Africa. The most of Chinese historians believe that the term of “Western Region” in those sentences should refer to the small Western Region. Unfortunately, this is a misinterpretation. The ancient books written in the Ming Dynasty about oversea travels adopted the concept of “Western Region” in a much broader sense. For example, the many western areas mentioned in “Records of Journey to Western Region” and “Notes on the Barbarians in Western Oceans” (both of the ancient books printed in Zheng He’s era) were far westwards away from the small Western Region. Most importantly, the following text of the Changle Epigraphy says, “…we arrived at Hormuz, Adan (Aden), Mugudushu (Mogadishu) in the Western Region, …”. It is very clear that “in the west of the Western Region of the Imperial Ming” means a place westwards away from the Mediterranean Region and North Africa.
The phrase of “in the north of the northward extension from the Imperial Ming” means a place northwards away from Siberia, which is part of Asia Continents and northwards from China. It is noted that there is a passage at the North Pole on the 1418 world chart, which indicates to us that Zheng He’s fleet might go through such passage. In Zheng He’s era the Chinese did not have any concept about the North Pole, accordingly when they took a journey from China to the North America Continent through the North Pole, they believed that the journey was always northwards. The modern geography theory about the North Pole was established after the “Europeans discovery” of the North Pole. In the modern geography theory, the journey from China to the North Pole is northwards, but journey from the North Pole to the North America Continent is southwards.
After digging out the true meaning of the said two sentences, we should realize that the farthest place referred to in the said two sentences is in the North America Continent.
Zheng He also recorded, in the texts of said two carved stone tablets, the number of countries visited by and the distance of sea spaces of his voyages. The records have been misunderstood and mistranslated as “… altogether more than thirty countries large and small. We have traversed more than one hundred thousand Li of immense water spaces, …”. Accordingly, many historians believe that the distance recorded in the texts should be referred to Zheng He’s cumulative total for his career of six voyages. I truly believe that the wording should read as “… altogether more than thirty countries large and small. We waded across the immensity of sea spaces of more than one hundred thousand Li, …”. That immensity of sea spaces was the maritime space touched by Zheng He’s fleet during the six voyages, “more than one hundred thousand Li” should refer to the size of such spaces.
What was the length for the term of “Li” in the medieval times of China? The conservative historians believe that it was more than 0.4 kilometer. Some take an aggressive approach saying that it was about 0.6 kilometer. Taking conservative way, “more than one hundred thousand Li” means more than fourteen thousand kilometers, which is same with the circumference of the Earth.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 04:38 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-19 12:22 PM Subject: continue...
Zhe He's Nautical Chart
The original name of Zheng He’s Nautical Chart is “The chart showing the treasure ships sailing into sea from Longjian Water Gate to various barbarian countries”. For easy reference, the Chinese historians name such chart as Zheng He’s Nautical Chart. No record indicates when Zheng He’s Nautical Chart was made. However, it is well believed that the original chart was mapped in the early fifteenth century and based on some voyages of Zheng He’s navigation. Note 6 The chart consists of twenty drawings respectively recorded on twenty pages of an ancient book named as Wu Beizhi. Inasmuch as the Zheng He’s Nautical Chart was recorded on twenty pages, the chart was mapped without consistent directions, distances, proportions and positions. More than 530 places were named, of which over 300 were out of China. The cities, towns, islands, navigation symbols, beaches, reefs and mountains were plotted on the chart along shipping lines. It continuously shows, on the seventeenth and eighteenth pages, a wide stretch of unnamed land with a long coastline below the southwest coastline of Sumatra Island. Beside such land there is a small island with a mark of “Stone City Mountain” and “people living there”. Another six islands also show up by the end of this land, among which a bigger one is marked with “Tiger’s tail reef” and another small one is marked with “people living there”. Several Chinese scholars claim that this land should be the Australia Continent, however no evidence has been provided.
It well believes for the historians that Zheng He’s Nautical Chart focus on the voyages without much attention on geography and topography. Even if it lack in consistent directions, distances, proportions and positions, the historians strongly believe that every lands and islands showed on the chart should exist in the real world and their positions along the voyages should be correctly plotted. On the two drawing, there is one voyage going between the southwest coastline of the Sumatra Island and the wide stretch of unnamed land. Obviously, the Australia Continent is not in the southwest direction of Sumatra Island. Glancing at the modern terrestrial globe, we cannot find other land exits in the southwest direction of Sumatra Island except the east coast of Africa and the Antarctica. However, when we turn over the terrestrial globe a little bit, we will be astonished to realize that a wide stretch of land with a long coastline leis in the far southwest direction of Sumatra Island. This wide stretch of land is the South America Continent. Furthermore, the direction of several voyages drawn on the pages from seventeenth to nineteenth are firstly from east to northwest and afterwards from south to north. The east coastline of Africa is depicted on the nineteenth page. Drawing a voyage with the same direction on the contemporary world map starting from the southwest coastline of the Sumatra Island, we may see that the South America Continent emerges firstly on the left side of the voyage, and the east coastline of Africa appears afterwards on the same side.
On the Zheng He’s Nautical Chart, the description of “Stone City Mountain” marked on a small island beside the long coastline of the unnamed land should be in connection with the Inca Empire, since many ruins of the cities in the Inca Empire’s era are located on mountain or plateau, and they were built with huge stones. This description is also in correspondence with the one of two notes described on South America in the 1418 world chart: “There are cities there built with huge stones, and called as the stone cities”.
The inverted shape of the South America Continent depicted on the 1418 world chart conceals its identification from many eminent historians of China for a long time. The long coastline of the America Continent showed on the 1418 world chart is the Peru-Chile coastline, rather than the Patagonia coastline, which lies in the far southwest direction of Sumatra Island on the modern world maps. The small island marked with “Stone City Mountain” should be one of islands along the Peru-Chile coastline. The six islands depicted by the end of this unnamed land should be those islands off the southern end of the South America Continent. Among those islands, the biggest one marked with “Tiger’s tail reef” should be Tierra del Fuego. In the Chinese tradition, people give a name to a site as tail of an animal or totem usually because the topographical shape looks like the tail of such animal or totem. It dose not make any sense why tiger’s tail was given as the name to the reef. A description made by a Portuguese historian in the medieval times tells us that in 1428 a Portuguese brought from overseas a world map, which depicted all the parts of the earth, on the world map the Straits of Magellan was called as “Dragon’s Tail”. The dragon has been the most favorable totem and symbol for the Chinese people. Meanwhile, there have been no totem in Islamism and the dragon also is not a favorable symbol for Christians. Therefore, it is strongly possible that the Chinese gave the name of “Dragon’s Tail”. But why this name? Dose the Straits of Magellan looks like dragon’s tail? No, it looks like dragon’s body, rather than his tail. I believe that the Portuguese misunderstood the name, which was given to an island in the Straits, rather than the Straits of Magellan (it is very possible that the island was Tierra del Fuego). In Zheng He’s era, the Chinese sailors called whale as dragon. If we look at the 1418 world chart, we can see that the shape of the South America Continent on the map is like a whale with its head up to the north. The islands off the south end of the South America Continent on the contemporary map look like the whale’s tail. The name of “Dragon’s Tail” was also connected with “Tiger’s tail reef” marked on the one of six islands depicted at the end of the unmanned land on the Zheng He’s Nautical Chart. The tiger is another favorable symbol for the Chinese, particularly for the Chinese man. There are many idioms about dragon and tiger, such as “fierce battle between dragon and tiger” (means fierce battle between giants), “prancing dragon and jumping tiger” (means a scene of bustling activity), “dragon’s pond and tiger’s cave” (means an extremely dangerous place) and “moving like dragon and walking like tiger” (means dignified manner of a strong man). It is possible that the original name for the reef on the Zheng He’s Nautical Chart was “Dragon’s Tail”, but when the chart was copied during several hundred years following one by another, someone mistaken the name as “tiger’s tail”.
The Captivating Views of the Ocean’s Shores (or the Overall Survey of the Ocean’s Shores
Ma Huan wrote this ancient book three years earlier than the Overall Survey of the Star Raft. This author was also a great traveler who accompanied Admiral Zheng He during his voyages in the early medieval period. This ancient book contains the poems describing the experience and feeling of the author during his routes with Zheng He. Two lines in the poems saying, “The ship mastered by the brave steersman mixed up the West and East; Only by reference to the stars the South and North could be identified.”
We all know that it is not too difficult to find out where is the West and where is the East. One sentence in “Notes on the Barbarians in Western Oceans” saying that “Recognizing the West and East only by reference to sunrise/sunset and moonrise/moonset. Measuring the distances by reference to the levels of the stars”. But why Ma Huan’s crew identified the directions only by watching the stars? The answer is quite simple: they had not seen sunrise/sunset and moonrise/moonset for a certain days.
There are only two zones on the earth in which we cannot see sunrise and sunset for a certain days. One is the Arctic Circle, and another is the Antarctic Circle.
“Notes on the Barbarians in Western Oceans”
In Zheng He’s era, there were three travelers who accompanied Admiral Zheng He during his voyages and wrote considerable books about the voyages: Fei Xin, Ma Huan and Gong Zhen. Gong Zhen completed the writing of his book in February of 1434, and the title of book is “Notes on the Barbarians in Western Oceans”. One sentence in the autobiographic note saying “In the beginning of Yongle Emperor’s period (1402-1424), (the Emperor) sent the important Chinese and foreign subjects to circulate those countries around Western Sea for showing the kindness and power (of the Emperor). The sign of “Western Sea” marked on the 1418 world chart tell us that the countries around Western Sea referred to in Gong Zhen’s book should be the countries around the North Atlantic Ocean. The historians always believe that the Chinese did not visit the Europe during Zheng He’s era. However, the notes of the countries’ names marked on the 1418 world chart confirm that their conclusion is not correct.
A country’s name of “Xi Pan” was marked in the Iberian Peninsula; two Chinese characters of “Fu Yang” was described in the central Europe; “Luo Mu Er” as a country’s name was recorded in the eastern Europe; and two Chinese characters of “Ji Li” was noted also as a country’s name on Russian part. You may recall the annotation marked on Eastern Europe about the religion named as “Jing”. In accordance with the relevant historical records, the Chinese in the Tang Dynasty gave the name of “Jing” to the Christianity. This annotation indicates to us that the Chinese not only visited the Europe in the early medieval period, but also made inquires about the religions in the Europe. It is quite possible that in the early medieval time the Chinese had paid visit to the churches and talked with the clergymen.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 04:41 AM ]
Author: quietrequiem Time: 2006-1-19 12:23 PM Subject: Discovering America 2
Discovering America isn't finding a copy of a 1418 map. Discovering America is interest in its discovery's impact on your life. China's economy belongs to America. You win.
requiem
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-19 12:23 PM Subject: continue..
The Marvelous Visions of the Star Raft?
The schedules of Zheng He’s seven voyages well documented on the ancient books and epigraphy, which include the Changle Epigraphy, the Epigraphy at the Temple of the Celestial Spouse, the epitaphs of Captain Zhou Wen and Lady Zhang in Ming Dynasty, “The Marvelous Visions of the Star Raft” and “The History of Ming” (this book was written in Qing Dynasty).
There are several discrepancies among the notes recorded on these ancient books and epigraphy about the seven schedules of Zheng He’s voyages. The most of discrepancies are quite understandable, since some took the date on which the Emperor issued the order to Zheng He as the departure time and some took the date of weighing anchor as the time to set out on a voyage. However, the two notes recorded in “The Marvelous Visions of the Star Raft” are quite unusual and unseasonable.
The first one is the record about the return time of Zheng He’s fourth voyage. This record tell us that Zheng He returned from his fourth voyage in 1414, but all other records show that Zheng He returned from his fourth voyage in 1415. Did Fei Xin’s ship really return to China one year earlier than Admiral Zheng He? It was not permitted under the Ming Dynasty’s military rules, which required the General to lead his troop back to the Emperor. Did Fei Xi’s ship was ordered by Admiral Zheng He to took an urgent report back to the Emperor. There is not any record about such order and urgent report.
The second one is much stranger than the first one. The departure time of Zheng He’s fifth voyage recorded in Fei Xin’s book is in 1415, one or two years earlier than the other books (some record that it was in the later of 1416, and some record the early of 1417 as the time of departure). Did Fei Xi’s ship weigh anchor without receiving the order from the Emperor, and also without the Commander Zheng He? That was certainly not in this case.
What was wrong with these two records? Did Fei Xin take those “wrong records”? I do not believe so. The content of “The Marvelous Visions of the Star Raft” indicate to us that Fei Xin was a serious person. He divided his book into two volumes, one describing the various peoples and local customs he saw personally in the barbarian countries, and another recording what he learned from others about the barbarians. Did those persons who copied this book following one by another take those “wrong records”? There was very little chance here, since the two versions of the ancient book contain the same mistakes, and the two mistakes are closely connected with each other.
What was the real reason for those two “wrong records”?
That was the time differences caused by the rotation of the Earth. As we all know that if we take journey from east to west, the times of sunrise and sunset will later than the times of starting point. During the fourth voyage of Zheng He, Fei Xin’s ship circumnavigated the global from the East to the West, and each times he saw sunrise and sunset were always later than the time of sunrise and sunset saw by people in China or those did not take same journey. Each day Fei Xi cumulated the longer time and after the three years he had almost one year shorter than others. That was why his two records were about one year earlier than others.
Why Fei Xin did not follow others and correct his time difference? The answer can be found out in his book. The content of the book indicated that Fei Xi took diary during the journey, and he was a very self-confident person and also had a stubborn personality. He truly believed in his diary and did not listen to others. We should thank the God who given such strong personality to Fei Xin, otherwise we may loss this clue.
“Research in Western and Eastern Oceans”
A Chinese scholar who had no seafaring experience wrote this book in 1617. At that time China was not strong at navigation anymore. The most of Chinese historians believe that the information provided in this ancient book was based on the past navigation knowledge and records gained in Zheng He’s era.
This book narrated that Brunei was the far end of Eastern Oceans and also the starting point of Western Oceans; therefore it was the finishing line for both of Western Oceans and Eastern Oceans. I already point out that several Chinese historians believe that the basis for drawing the lines between the Western Oceans and Eastern Oceans were the courses of voyage carried by the wind and current flowing. If the Chinese in Zheng He’s era had no experience of circumnavigating the global, how they knew the courses of voyage carried by the wind and current flowing?
V. A Question
In accordance with the historical records, Ming court spent colossal national treasures for the voyages. In the view of the contemporary people, those colossal national treasures may mean nothing comparing with human being’s life. One of senior officials in Ming court noted, “The number of people died for the voyages could be accounted by thousands”. It is said in the epitaphs of Captain Zhou Wen and Lady Zhang in Ming Dynasty that “(the sailors) put their lives on risks and few of them return to their homes”. The History of Ming records that a ship commanded by Captain Zhao Wang during one of the seven voyages set out on the voyage with three hundred crewmembers. When Captain Zhao Wang returned from his journey after several years, the number of his crewmembers was only three, including oneself.
On behalf of those people whose body became food for fish during Zheng He’s the seven voyages and those people never return to their homes after they left for the voyages, may I ask a question to you:
Who was the world discoverer of the world?
end
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 04:42 AM ]
Author: quietrequiem Time: 2006-1-19 12:33 PM Subject: The end is nearer than you hope
It's great that Chinese dude so-and-so first planted food on Vancouver Island way way way back. Don't you believe at least some sort of incremental advance should have taken place since then? For Christ's sake, you're still eating DOG... has any evolution taken place?
requiem
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-19 12:42 PM Subject: Watch Gavin Menzies in Promotional film
http://www.1421.tv/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=121
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 04:43 AM ]
Author: christopher_104 Time: 2006-1-19 05:37 PM Subject: The map is a tribute to China.
Norway also claims Norsemen discovered America first but this Chinese map is much
older. By the way it is a tribute to British journalism that a UK journal reported this. I would
like to see an academic debate on this map as I feel it could well prove china discovered
the Americas first.
Author: tris06 Time: 2006-1-19 06:43 PM
i think your getting in the realms of fantasy now... before 960AD?? yeah right...
The fact is no documents were ever made in europe about a chinese fleet, now everyone should know that ..
1. The church was the most skilled at recording history, If the chinese visited a church we would know it..
2. why the hell would a chinese general go to one **ty little church, There were many cities on the coast and Capital cities that he would have gone to.
As to why the map showing europe, ...... silk road silly,
europe knew the coast line of china before they were ever around asia, this is another dream.
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-1-20 01:43 PM Subject: THE SIN IS 'BLACK-RED'
Chengo Ho gave an accurate discription of the 'Indians who lived in the Americas' from the present to as early as 75,000 years ago, when C.S. Gladwin and others point out that, THE FIRST INHABITANTS OF THE AMERICAS WERE three TYPES OF NEGRO PEOPLES: Negrito, Negro, Negro-Australoid....another group arrived about 2000 BC from the Siberia region and are related to the Algonquin speakers.
See "A History of the African-Olmecs," AuthorHouse.com also see the pictures of ancient African/Negroid peoples and civilization of the Americas http://community.webtv.net/pabarton
However, parts of West Africa the ancient colleges and Universities still remain (University of Sankore) and the ancient books, maps and geography scrolls point to African journies by Emperor Ci (who ruled a great Sahara empire of fertile lands and inland seas) thousands of years Before Christ.
The journey of Tahuti (Thoth) and the introduction of the Nubian-Khemitic calendar to Mexico in 3113 BC is also recorded.
Present-day Negroid/Prehistoric African origin peoples such as the Waschitaw Nation of Louisiana/Mississippi, Gwale of Georgia, Yamassee of Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, Alabama; the Caracoles of the Caribbean, the ancient Olmec - Manding Shi, the Choco of Colombia, the Afro-Darienite of Panama, the Califunami of the Caribbean, the Guanini of South America...all are the direct and living descendents of Africans who arrived in the AMERICAS, THOUSANDS OF YEARS BEFORE COLUMBUS UP TO THE 1300'S.
Jayzee Kushango
http://community.webtv.net/pabarton
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-21 04:34 AM Subject: African-Olmecs
QUOTE:
See "A History of the African-Olmecs," AuthorHouse.com also see the pictures of ancient African/Negroid peoples and civilization of the Americas
http://community.webtv.net/pabarton
Author: seneca Time: 2006-1-22 02:43 PM
The most remarkable fact about this "newly discovered" map of the world is its fictionality.
It's not a Chinese map at all. Look at how well detailed Europe is whereas Asia looks bunched and compressed.
Next creation by some Xinhuai "news editor": America is Chinese ancestral territory because the name 'America' dervies from the same root that gave rise to the ancient Chinese moniker of Macau, A-magao'...
Wait until someone refloats Atlantis - then you will stop your sinocentric philsophocial speculations!
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-22 02:52 PM Subject: Nah Seneca, we understand your frustrations, but still
QUOTE:
Originally posted by seneca at 2006-1-22 14:43
The most remarkable fact about this "newly discovered" map of the world is its fictionality.
It's not a Chinese map at all. Look at how well detailed Europe is whereas Asia looks bunched ...
Fact is fact.
Many renowned archeologists and scientists in London have added their names to the list supporting the evidence as being genuine.
The most skeptical are the Chinese themselves because they don't want any possibility of a hoax on their hands.
It is going to be scientifically dated by a New Zealand university.
Maybe now you will say you have something against Aussies and New Zealanders.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-23 03:38 AM Subject: I am pretty sure
Other maps like this one are available somewhere in the individual private collections in China.
Remember that the owner of the map procured it from a private source in the first place.
There is no reason why the map should be a unique finding.
[ Last edited by wchao37 at 2006-1-24 01:37 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-23 09:32 AM Subject: Map collector Liu Gang at Press Conference
Map collector Liu Gang speaks in Beijing in front of a slide of a map which is said to be an 18th century copy of the 1418 original and showing the Americas in unusual detail (Image: Reuters/Jason Lee)
Image Attachment:
chinamap180106.jpg (2006-1-23 09:32 AM, 13.24 K) / Download count 229
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9481
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-23 09:40 AM Subject: Reply #38 christopher_104's post
QUOTE:
The map is a tribute to China.
Norway also claims Norsemen discovered America first but this Chinese map is much
older. By the way it is a tribute to British journalism that a UK journal reported this. I would
like to see an academic debate on this map as I feel it could well prove china discovered
the Americas first.
Thanks for your comments. I would give a lot credit to The Economist which did a very good job in factual reporting as we compare it with Liu Gang's article.
Then, I also seen the following report from UK -- The Guardian, which to me, especially on the Chinese map story, is more a non-scientific speculation rather than a factual reasoning.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Column ... 673,1690941,00.html
Still, in general, I would say British news media has given this story a lot attention.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 03:18 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-23 09:41 AM Subject: Reply #44 wchao37's post
Yes, I was thinking about the same thing. Later...
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-23 09:44 AM Subject: Reply #40 jayzee's post
Very interesting, indeed. So maybe someday, we will revise history again. And I am sure, oneday, sooner or later, historians will pay more attention to African.
Thanks for the link, I will pay more attention to the subject you brought up.
Interesting !
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 02:51 AM ]
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-1-23 10:02 AM Subject: Reply #44 wchao37's post
Looks like things are positive!
The facts are there.
Let the experts do their jobs.
Author: theshepherd Time: 2006-1-23 11:00 AM
It would only prove that the Chinese voyaged to the new continent ealier than the Europeans, if the map is proven to be genuine and authentic. Why do we make a big issue out of this tiny map? Let's work harder to make the country stronger, since we know the country, once a world leader in many fields, is now lagging. Let's move.
Author: christopher_104 Time: 2006-1-23 11:30 PM Subject: Zheng , John Harrison and Native Americans
Zheng learnt how to calculate longitude several centuries before John Harrison
1421: The Year China Discovered the World
UK : Book
If youre going to make a stir, you might as well do it in style. And Gavin Menzies has
caused one, big time. In 1421: The Year China Discovered the World, this retired Royal
Navy submarine commander, who only visited China for the first time on his 25th
wedding anniversary, claims that the Chinese navigator Zheng He discovered America
some 71 years before Columbus. And not content with this, he goes on to suggest that
Zheng He learnt how to calculate longitude several centuries before John Harrison
supposedly nailed the problem.
Here is an interesting point about native americans from the Menzies website:
"The Native American Indian people have substantial and statistically significant East
Asian, Chinese, mixture in their genes, sometimes up to of 20 percent, 30 percent and
even 40 percent," Menzies said. "So one can argue that Native Americans are at least
as much Chinese as they are European."
We should keep on this subject because people do not like
to be told history is wrong. This theory looks good to me.
[ Last edited by christopher_104 at 2006-1-24 12:02 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-24 03:08 AM Subject: Reply #50 theshepherd's post
QUOTE:
It would only prove that the Chinese voyaged to the new continent ealier than the Europeans, if the map is proven to be genuine and authentic. Why do we make a big issue out of this tiny map? Let's work harder to make the country stronger, since we know the country, once a world leader in many fields, is now lagging. Let's move.
No, I am afraid that you have misunderstood my intention for this thread, please go back and read my opening statement again. I am interested in this map because it's an extraordinary discovery story, from which we have a lot to learn and to see about ourselves and about the world.
Besides, please pay attention. The western news media has paid much more attention than Chinese.
The fact that China is still lagging in many areas should not prevent us from learning our history and history of others. It's quite possible that Chinese historians are lack of ability to more closely scrutinize the european sea exploration history, this is one area that we are lagging. This can be readily seen from the development of this story -- So many western reports are commenting on this remarkable story, and very little comments form Chinese experts. But I am sure, Chinese experts are wakening up, will catch up.
Doesn't all these have already made this story fascinating? And there are more...
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 03:11 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-24 03:28 AM Subject: Reply #51 christopher_104's post
QUOTE:
We should keep on this subject because people do not like
to be told history is wrong. This theory looks good to me.
Well said !
As a matter of fact, Gavin Menzies is correcting himself after seeing the map, not that his main theory is wrong, but the year. So his claim of 1421 is to be mended to as latest as 1418.
Here is a story from British Financial Times, carried by China Radio International
http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2238/2006-1-17/160@293950.htm
Published: January 17 2006
Retired British submariner Gavin Menzies has won fame and huge book sales with his theory that China discovered the Americas and much of the rest of the world in 1421 - so you might think he would be upset by a new Chinese claim that he got the date wrong.
Not so. Menzies is embracing the findings of Liu Gang, a lawyer, who says he has a map that shows fleets commanded by the Chinese eunuch admiral Zheng He had been all around the globe by 1418 at the latest.
In fact, Menzies, the author of the bestseller, 1421: The Year China Discovered the World, now reckons the eunuch's men were merely following in the wake of sailors answering to Mongol conqueror Kublai Khan, who he thinks made it to America in the 13th century.
....
By the way, the native Indian story is very interesting too. Too little time, so much to learn.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 05:23 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-24 04:11 AM Subject: Reply #44 wchao37's post, again
QUOTE:
I am pretty sure
Other maps like this one are available somewhere in the individual private collections in China.
Remember that the owner of the map procured it from a private source in the first place.
There is no reason why the map should be a unique finding.
Yes, i was thinking about the same thing, especially if one calculates the years between 1418 and 1763 -- that's 345 years! What have happened during all these years? And this is one of the points made by the critics.
Here is what prompted me to think:
1) Common understanding is that the mandarian court destroyed records of the heroic Zheng He Sea Voyages. This if true would have certainly destroyed the national effort to keep the good records.
2) As Lu Guang's article showed that however, Zheng He and his people did leave records here and there, see post #32 IV. Evidence hid in Chinese Epigraphy and Ancient Books
3) Since many records were destroyed in China, we may find some records overseas, in fact, some are coming out, as shown in this China Radio International news:
http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/974/2006/01/19/63@44563.htm
Most records of admiral Zheng He's voyages were burnt by later emperors who disagreed with the expansionist policies of his patron, the Yongle Emperor, who died in 1424.
Liu has sent the map to the University of Cambridge for carbon dating, and the result is due next month.
Liu's possession may not be alone. Recently a Malagasy told Menzies that he had a Chinese map dating back to 1430, which might also relate to Zheng He, said Liu.
4) This map is a sign of hope that more maps or historical records will show up from private collections. And I am sure more collectors now will go back and look at their maps.
People don't have the resources or time to appreciate history or music when they are struggling for food or when a society is disordered. Now it's time for Chinese to pay more attention to her national treasures.
5) One last point is that I have a feeling that Chinese may have already explored many sea areas (not globally) and accumulated much knowledge even before Zheng He. Think about the size of Zheng He's fleet. The emperor wouldn't have spent such huge resources and effort without enough knowledge.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 09:38 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-24 05:00 AM Subject: A sea of political speculations surround the map
Led by The Guadian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewh ... /0,,1690237,00.html
I very much hope we could all come down to the data, including journalists and historians. At least we should ask the reasonable questions such as where this map has come from and how.
Why so much political spin?
And here is what Liu Gang said:
"When I told friends that I was going to unveil the map, they told me I was crazy," he said at a packed news conference. "They told me I would start a war. On one side are only two men - Me and Menzies. On the other are 10,000 well-armed scholars. And behind them politicians. How, they said, could I expect to win?"
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 05:08 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-24 09:56 AM Subject: The "Christopher Columbus" Chart
Photo 1) Anonymous Genoese chart of Europe and North Africa
(C. Columbus ?), ca. 1490
circular world map is shown on left
Photo 2) Anonymous Genoese chart (C. Columbus ?), ca. 1490
detail of circular world map
(oriented with East at the top)
Photo 3) Anonymous Genoese chart of Europe and North Africa
(C. Columbus ?), ca. 1490
detail of North Africa
Source: http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/LMwebpages/257A.html
Monograph:
TITLE: The Christopher Columbus Chart
DATE: 1492-1500
AUTHOR: Christopher Columbus
(shanhuang's note: in fact, many historians pointed out that Christopher Columbus was not the author of the map)
DESCRIPTION: In 1924, Charles de La Ronciere, the renowned French historian of exploration and cartography, attributed to Christopher Columbus a portolan sea chart that has been discussed and debated ever since. Although Columbus was an accomplished mapmaker, scholars have been frustrated in their attempts to confirm who actually created this unsigned document, originally acquired by the French national library in the nineteenth century.
The sea chart displays a classic delineation of the greater Mediterranean area, supplemented by the Atlantic coast stretching from southern Scandinavia to the mouth of the Congo River (named Rio Poderoso by Diogo Cao in 1484). It has particularly rich nomenclature down the African coast, where Columbus is thought to have made at least one voyage with the Portuguese. To the east, the Black Sea and Red Sea are included. Westward is a series of islands some real, some imaginary-from the Arctic to the Gulf of Guinea. Below the compass rose in the North Atlantic lie three islands, Isles of the Seven Cities. This was the Portuguese name for the islands that other Europeans called Antilia.
In the neck, or narrow portion. of the parchment, a small circular world map centering on Jerusalem and surrounded by celestial rings symbolizes the geocentric concept of the universe, commonly accepted at that time. It is most unusual to have a practical navigator s chart juxtaposed with a cosmographical plan. One of the accompanying lengthy notes in Latin announces that the world map, or mappamundi although drawn on a plane, should be considered spherical. Displaying the earth in this manner underscores the transitional character of the map from medieval to Renaissance thinking.
This circular mappamundi is also noteworthy for showing southern and eastern Africa more accurately than does either the Martellus map or the Behaim globe (Slides #256 and #258). It implies that information is included from Vasco da Gama, the Portuguese navigator who discovered India, even though he did not return to Europe until 1499. The treatment of the west, south, and east coasts of Africa suggests the map's Portuguese origin. Latin is used for the numerous lengthy annotations. The 250 place-names, however, appear in their Portuguese form, and many Portuguese-controlled areas display the Lusitanian flag. A reference at the Cape Verde Islands mentions their discovery by the Genoese, an intriguing fact considering Columbus's birthplace.
The surviving remains of Columbus's library include his revelatory marginal notes, particularly in his copy of Cardinal d'Ailly's cosmography, Imago Mundi. Monique de La Ronciere, having researched these notes, recently pointed out that Columbus referred to his "four charts on paper, all of which also contain a sphere." She also noted an error in the inscription on this chart, next to the Red Sea, which is identical to an error in one of Columbus's marginal notes.
The Spanish flag flying over Granada implies the map was completed after January 1492, when Spain captured that city from the Moors. There was no attempt to show the new discoveries reported from 1493 onward, as recorded on the Juan de La Cosa planisphere of 1500 and those which followed. This fact suggests a date for this map no later than the early 1490s.
It appears questionable that a chart with this degree of professional finish and decoration, heightened with gold and including elaborate vignettes of selected major European cities, was actually executed by Christopher Columbus or his brother, Bartolommeo. The style and emphasis do not appear to support the assertion. Certainly it could have been commissioned by Columbus, and his Portuguese contacts could have provided the new information, which had to have originated in Lisbon. The chart, with its mappamundi inset, remains a remarkable document of the discovery period. Although the attribution to the Admiral by the French scholars has merit. it has never been confirmed.
LOCATION: Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris
SIZE: 70 x 110 cm (28 x 44 inches)
REFERENCES:
*Fite, E. & Freeman, A., A Book of Old Maps, #3.
*Nebenzahl, K., Atlas of Columbus, pp. 22-25.
Crone, G.R., Maps and their Makers,
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 10:10 AM ]
Image Attachment:
Columbus chart photo 1.jpg (2006-1-24 10:05 AM, 83.95 K) / Download count 234
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9537
Image Attachment:
Columbus chart photo 2.jpg (2006-1-24 10:08 AM, 115.1 K) / Download count 223
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9538
Image Attachment:
Columbus chart photo 3.jpg (2006-1-24 10:10 AM, 80.62 K) / Download count 222
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9539
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-24 10:36 AM Subject: Once again -- a good look of the 1418 map
The 1418 map:
http://www.1421.tv/pages/maps/1418.htm
By the way, I have found several photos of early European maps(or copies) that showed California as an island, will post later. And I may have a story to tell why California was drawn as an island.
Another note, has anyone noticed on the upper right hand corner area (between Canada and America) of the 1418 map that it marked "A Cannibal Country" (食人国) in clear Chinese?
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 11:09 AM ]
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-24 03:30 PM
QUOTE:
Another note, has anyone noticed on the upper right hand corner area (between Canada and America) of the 1418 map that it marked "A Cannibal Country" (食人国) in clear Chinese?
Yeah, it was pretty obvious some of the adventurers were consumed, or else how would they know.
Some Indian tribes in Northeast U.S. were associated with Tsi Yiu, the leader of the tribes which were defeated by Hwangti 5000 years ago.
They showed S-shaped ornaments similar to those used in what is now Hebei Province.
I think they were called the Uroquois, quite separate from the Hopewell Indians in what is now Ohio state.
The Hopewells were characterized by the presence of mounds. The Uroquois had nothing of the sort, but they clearly were associated with the Tsi Yiu tribes.
So I am not surprised to see descriptions of some Indian tribes in that area. Cannibalism? This is the first time I have heard about that one.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-25 10:47 AM Subject: Reply #58 wchao37's post
QUOTE:
I think they were called the Uroquois, quite separate from the Hopewell Indians in what is now Ohio state.
Thanks for the comment, it quickly directs me to find some useful information about Iroquois Indians. Several websites confirmed what the 1418 map said. Here is one of them -- The Iroquois before 1780:
http://iroquoisindians.freeweb-hosting.com/webdoc14.htm
Recognized as the most fearsome and violent tribe, the Iroquois Indians roamed the St. Lawrence region for years. Originally from upstate New York between the Adirondack Mountains and Niagara Falls, they migrated to Eastern Ontario through conquest of other tribes. Originally called Iroqu which means rattlesnakes as an insult from other tribes it was changed when the French pioneers added the "ois" to the end to make Iroquois. As for the name given to them by themselves, it was Haudenosunee, meaning "people of the long house". The Iroquois were a feared tribe because of their blood hungry demeanor, political unity and cannibalism. In Canada, Iroquois physically occupied very little of their land except for parts along the St. Lawrence and chose to remain in their homeland in upstate New York. However in 1779, during the American Revolution, Iroquois sided with the British forces and consequently the Americans were able to invade their homeland and this drove numerous members into southern and eastern Ontario where they remained. Already with plenty of land and now inhabitants in upper St. Lawrence and Quebec, half of the Iroquois population resided in Canada and has ever since.
......
Interesting, but I am unable to comment about website yet.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-25 10:48 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-25 11:02 AM Subject: Reply #56 shanhuang's post -- more comment on Columbus' Chart
First, I have hard time to recognize any geographic features on the world map of Columbus' chart (photo 2). I could only read two words: Europe and Africa. I don't know what the other long name means. Does anyone have a better idea about the chart? Tell me, please.
2nd, as shown in the monograph of Columbus's chart on post #56, European historians have no definitive proof that the chart used by Columbus was drawn or written by him, in fact, many historians believe it was not by him. Nevertheless, Christopher Columbus was named as the AUTHOR in the monograph.
TITLE: The Christopher Columbus Chart
DATE: 1492-1500
AUTHOR: Christopher Columbus
I can imagine numerous critics would come out if this is done in Zheng He's case. That's why I feel that Chinese experts are lack of the ability to closely scrutinize European sea exploration history.
Agree?
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-25 11:07 AM Subject: Nice searches
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 2006-1-24 04:11
Yes, i was thinking about the same thing, especially if one calculates the years between 1418 and 1763 -- that's 345 years! What have happened during all these years? And this is one of the po ...
Anything in retrospect is easy to gloss over as insignificant.
345 years sounds like nothing when we look backwards from 2006.
But that is 115 years more than the entire history of the U.S. since its declaration of independence.
I am glad to see more backup material available on this issue. This 1418 map could not possibly be unique or standalone.
The reason why all this is becoming believable and eye-catching is because of China's explosive growth.
If China remains weak as a nation today, even if a Zheng He ship were dug up in California they would not acknowledge the fact and would have said someone put it there as a fake.
Now because of China's strength everything about her past is possible and believable.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-25 11:12 AM Subject: Reply #61 wchao37's post
QUOTE:
The reason why all this is becoming believable and eye-catching is because of China's explosive growth.
Aha, then you would partially agree with the Guardian article -- Sea Change. Read it. It's in post #55. It has some truth in it, but I prefer that journalists could be more scientific, which I know very hard for them. 
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-25 11:17 AM Subject: Reply #62 shanhuang's post
Actually the Guardian article is from a diametrically opposite vantage point.
They are saying that it is believable because of China's status in the world.
I am saying that it is not unbelievable because of China's status in the world.
There obviously is a huge difference between the two.
In other words, that author is saying that if not because of China's national status, the incredible map would have been unbelievable.
I am saying that if not because of China's national status, even a highly credible map like this would have been unbelievable.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-25 11:21 AM Subject: European maps showed California as an island
Before posting the map pictures, I would like to quote from the opening article from The Economist:
QUOTE:
Moreover, some of the errors in the 1418 map soon turned up in European maps, the most striking being California drawn as an island. The Portuguese are aware of a world map drawn before 1420 by a cartographer named Albertin di Virga, which showed Africa and the Americas. Since no Portuguese seamen had yet discovered those places, the most obvious source for the information seems to be European copies of Chinese maps.
And this is what prompted me to search for some ancient European maps. Please note the number on each picture title is the year the map was made.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-25 11:43 AM ]
Image Attachment:
Moll Map 1719.jpg (2006-1-25 11:21 AM, 73.68 K) / Download count 220
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9636
Image Attachment:
Seutter 1728-1730.jpg (2006-1-25 11:29 AM, 60.47 K) / Download count 220
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9641
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-25 11:38 AM Subject: Reply #63 wchao37's post
QUOTE:
Actually the Guardian article is from a diametrically opposite vantage point.
Of course, I understood the difference. That's why I called the Guardian article "Sea of political speculations!" in my post #55.
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-1-25 12:10 PM Subject: SAHARA AFRICANS FIRST TO ENTER THE AMERICAS BY SHIPI
Sahara Africans of the Manding-Shi and Manding Kushi nations were the first people to enter the Americas by ship...most likely papyrus and 'sewn-plank' ships and boats. How is that conclusion reached. It is based on what happened in the Sahara about 30,000 years ago.
SAHARA 'Aquatic Civilizations' and the Migrations to the East and West
About 30,000 years ago, the Sahara was partly covered by a giant inland sea that opened in the 'Spanish Sahara' region and emptied out in the Delta region of Egypt. The area was not totally covered with water but resembled the Great Lakes of the US, and the Great Lakes (Lake Victoria) of Africa.
In that same region, forests, meadows, grasslands, rivers, streams, and lots of large towns and cities existed. There was also a form of agriculture and horticulture at that early period in history (and most scientists don't even realize that). The area was a giant waterway with boats of papyrus and sewn-plank with sails. Some years ago, Natiional Geographic magazine had pictures of these prehistoric boats painted on cave walls in the Sahara Desert.
The world's first expansive empire was also in the Sahara. It was centered in DAFUR, SUDAN, and it was spread all the way to India. This ancient empire is called by Biblical historians as the great empire built by people like Nimrod and others. However, the legendary king of this region was called 'Tyr' who was also recognized as a God by some nations.
ANCIENT MIGRATIONS FROM THE SAHARA TO THE AMERICAS AND EAST ASIA/MELANESIA
Migrations from the Sahara took on two routes. One migration went west to the Americas about 30,000 years ago. The migrants were Sahara Africans most likely of the Manding-Shi language and cultural group. That group of people are known as the 'Olmec' and have left magnificent monuments and collosal statues of Negro heads and other cultural features found in Africa throughout the Meso-American region and from California to the Florida/Georgia region of the US.
see http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/1.htm
http://www.blackafricanhistory.blogstream.com
http://blackafricanhistory.blogstream.com
Another migration took place from the Sahara and Egypt/East Africa region to the Indian Ocean and all the way to Melanesia. Based on the knowledge of people like Ben Tangghama, the former Foreign Minister of Papua New Guinea, Africans have been settling East Asia and the South Pacific, Melanesia as early as 100,000 BC.
However since then, many other voyages have occurred. The period of about 30,000 to 10,000 BC, a wave of migrations from the Sahara in boats took place. Some artefacts used in Ancient Egypt such as the 'pinis sheaf' is still worn by tribal people in New Guinea clearly shows an ancient connection ( see http://community.webtv.net/pabarton ).
The Ancient Egyptian Crocodile God was called 'Sebek' and there is a tribe of Negroid people in New Guinea who 'recognize' the crocodile and who mark their skins like the scales of a crocodile. These Negroid people are called the 'Sepik' Tribe. There are many other similarities.
The ancient Manding-Shi people were a branch of the Manding language people who were spread throughout the Sahara during the 'wet' and fertile phase. As the Sahara began to dry up, they moved throughout parts of Africa, to the Americas to India, to the South Pacific and SE Asia. Others moved northeast from Southern India to the $$rin Basin, while some settled into Europe and parts of the Mediterranean.
The Manding-Shi and Manding-Kushi are also credited with beginning the building of massive monuments in the Americas. One group of Manding-Kush who grew to massive heights also settled in parts of the Mississippi Valley. Their descendents are still there today and are called the Waschitaw People. (See http://community.webtv.net/pabarton )
According to African oral and literary sources, one of the Africans recorded to have sailed to the Americas in prehistoric times was Emperor Ci. Emperor Ci was a great leader and explorer. He assembled eight ships (according to the Maya Book, the Popul Vuh, translated by Sahagun, the Spanish Monk) and Emperor Ci sailed to the Americas with a large number of people and supplies. The mperor and his people made many trips between Africa and Mexico/Americas after the first trip.
Between the period of Tenkamenin of Ghana 1000 AD to Abu Bakari 1300 AD, Africans from both the Ghana and Mali Empires entered the Americas as traders of gold and other materials. The ancient trade with the Americas actually began as early as 1500 BC to 1000 BC. In fact, when Col
So, Africans have been sailing to the Americas by ship and boat as early as 30,000 BC.
Yet, these are not the first Negroid people to enter the Americas. The first Negroid/Black people to enter the Americas were Pygmoids, Negroids, Negro-Australoids. They began as early as 75,000 BC and continued to about 15,000 BC. Groups of people from Siberia and East Asia belong to the Mongoloid race, and others from Melanesia belonging to the Negroid race entered the Americas from Siberia about 10,000 BC to 2000 BC. Among these groups were the Algonquin speakers and the Clovis Point People.
http://community.webtv.net/pabarton
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-1-25 08:58 PM Subject: shanhuang, this is an interesting post from jayzee
QUOTE:
Originally posted by jayzee at 2006-1-25 12:10
Sahara Africans of the Manding-Shi and Manding Kushi nations were the first people to enter the Americas by ship...most likely papyrus and 'sewn-plank' ships and boats. How is that conclusion reac ...
A lot of black history has not been taught in classrooms yet.
We keep our minds open to all claims just as the rest of the world should have kept their minds open about China.
One question though, jayzee, how did they navigate the oceans without the mariner's compass invented by the Chinese?
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-1-25 10:04 PM Subject: THE WARM ATLANTIC CURRENTS ARE RESPONSIBLE
The 'loadstone' finder was in use in Africa for thousands of years. The Egyptians had it, the Nok-Wagadu (West Africans) had it. See, "They Came Before Columbus,' by Ivan Van Sertima. So this is the same device used to sail to the South Pacific.
However currents from the African coasts will take a ship to the Americas with little effort.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-26 10:36 AM Subject: Reply #66 jayzee's post
Thank you again, jayzee, for your very interesting post, which let us to think about African history, a rare topic.
We all know that all human races genetically trace back to Africa, yet, we don't seem to know much on how we got here today. There is so much lost and so much to learn about it.
Could you give us some idea about the current scope of the study?
By the way, it's interesting to hear that 'lodestone' has been used for thousands years before. So far, it is commonly understood as:
"The direction pointing nature of lodestone was known as far back as 4th century China, where it was used in geomancy. By the 12th century the Chinese were known to use the lodestone compass for navigation,......"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodestone
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-26 12:16 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-26 10:49 AM Subject: Reply #67 wchao37's post
I agree.
Today we are talking about Chinese Zheng He navigated around the globe, tomorrow we may be talking about Africans roaming asross the oceans much ealier.
History is an evolving, never ending book, that's why it's fasinating. New technologies will also enable us to evaluate things impossible in the past.
More importantly, we should understand that we human species are really more or less the same. We really should appreciate how much our ancient people have done for us.
Yes, keep an open mind.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-26 12:20 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-26 11:28 AM Subject: "Island of California" -- Baja California
I am still curious why California was depicted as an island in the 1418 map as well as those later European maps. Please let me know if anyone has any ideas.
When I look at the world map, the Baja California Peninsula of Mexico showed a strikingly similar shapes to the mistaken California Island seen on those ancient maps. Below is a photo. And I also read the following story:
Baja California or Lower California is a peninsula in the west of Mexico. It extends some 1250 km from Tijuana in the north to Cabo San Lucas in the south, separating the Pacific Ocean from the Gulf of California (or "Sea of Cort閟").
The Sierra San Pedro M醨tir is a major mountain range in the northern part of the state. The highest point is Cerro de la Encantada, 3096 m. It is connected to the Californian Peninsular Ranges by the lower Sierra Ju醨ez.
At the south end of Baja California Sur, the Sierra de la Laguna forms an isolated mountain range rising to 2406 m.
And it was said in the minds of European explorers, California existed as an idea before it was ever discovered
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baja_California_Peninsula
We know that California existed on the 1418 map as an island, could the ancient seamen mistake Baja California Peninsula as California and didn't go all the way through the gulf of California?
I don't know... only guessing ...
By the way, the 1418 map did show mountain(s) on the California "island". What's interesting is that the shape of the California island in 1418 map differes from those on the later European maps, which were much similar to the Baja California Peninsula.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-26 11:35 AM ]
Image Attachment:
baja_california.jpg (2006-1-26 11:28 AM, 27.28 K) / Download count 207
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9690
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-1-26 01:11 PM Subject: Reply #71 shanhuang's post
Seems California was separated by the Andreas faults but 'cos of movement,it joined the mainland.
As you know, scientists are always monitoring the earth moverment there
for you know the San Francisco quake disasters long ago.
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-1-26 01:22 PM Subject: CALIFORNIA'S CENTRAL VALLEY WAS COVERED WITH WATER
One of the reasons why the Spanish thought that California was an Island is because they got that information from Black Moors living in Spain. In fact it was the same Spaniards who named the region 'California' after Queen Califia, the Black Amazon Queen said to rule over California, the Island 'at the end of the terrestrial plain.'
The person to mention that California was an 'island' ruled by a Black Amazon Queen was Ordonez de Montalvo who is said to have written the book, "Journey to Esplandian.' This book was based on knowledge of the 'New World' that came from the Black Moors of West/NorthWest Africa who ruled and controlled Spain for about 800 years.
The contribution of the Black Moors to Spain and to Europe is not usually discussed. In fact, there has been the effort to make the Black Moors of the Mahgrebi Region into 'Arabs.' Yet, these were African Negroes and not Semitic Arabs. (see http://www.mu-atlantis.com ) The Semitic Abbysid Arabs entered Spain about 1000 AD and when they arrived, the old racial animosity with the Black converts to Islam that goes back to ancient Arabia flared up in Spain. [If ever the chance is there, please read "Susu Economics," at http://www.authorHouse.com or read, "African Presence in Early Asia,' by Ivan Van Sertima and Runoko Rashidi, at Transaction Publications, New Bruinswick, New Jersey or check this link http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html )
The Black Moors (not Arabs, but these Africans who lived from Nigeria to Morocco and converted to Islam in the 700's AD, after inviting 'ulamas' or Muslim teachers from Egypt), did venture into the Americas for centuries before they became Muslims and for centuries up to the 1500's.
In fact, the very same Africans who of the prehistoric (and contemporary) cultural and linguistic group called 'Manding-Shi (Niger-Bantu) and Manding-Kush (Niger-Kordofan), and who entered the Americas in prehistoric times ( 30,000 BC, say Lutz, Van Sertima, Gladwin, et al.. - http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp/3.htm ), these are the same Africans who entered the Americas with Emperor Ci before 3000 BC (Popul Vuh as translated by Sahagun) as well as later on up to the 1400's.
Another group of Africans from the Nubia-Egypt region also entered into the Americas. According to Zacharia Sitchin, excavations done by Mexican, American and other archeologists found the Egyptian-Nubian calender in Mexico. That calendar is said to have been brought to Mexico by Tehuti Mez (Thoth).
Take a look at these references http://www.mu-atlantis.com http://mu-atlantis.com http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/3.htm
The Moors invaded Spain in 711 AD. The leader of that invasion was Gabel Tarik who was a convert to Islam, as were the vast majority of Almohads or Black Moors. Moorish ships made frequent trips to the Americas and these Moors were called Califunami (one of the ethnic groups that some American Blacks living in the Florida/Virgin Island region and California/Central America belong to).
These Moors were widespread throughout the Americas and had a strong trading relationship. Black Moors were not 'Arabs,' but were Africans who converted to Islam.
The 'tawny' Moors or Arabs first entered Spain about 1000 AD. These Arabs were par of the Abbysid Dynasty based in Syria. As soon as the Arabs invaded Spain, they had conflict with the Black Moors who ruled spain. This conflict lasted for about 400 years and gradually, this division led to the eventual takeover of Spain by the Christians.
So, while the Black Moors ruled Spain, parts of southern Europe and were part of the intellectual power in Northern and Central Europe, they contributed to the renaissance that occurred in Spain and Portugal.
As for the region from Nigeria to Morocco, the hhistory is one unbroken line, even during slavery. The people who converted to Islam in the 700's were part of more ancient kingsoms that existed in West Africa and the South Western Sahara. The most ancient is the Zingh Empire (15,000 BC). Zingh was the Mother culture that gave way to Egyptian and Nubian-Ku**e civilization.
The Zingh (the name 'Zingh' is used by the Arabs as a name for Blacks) Empire stretched from Senegal to India. It was the first global empire (called the "Ethiopian Empire' in the Bible, and the empire founded by Cush in the West and Nimrod in the East after the Ice Age began to diminish and the Sahara became 'wet' and partly covered with inland seas, just as California was.
Today, much of the Sahara is dry and most of the ancient and prehhsitoric people have migrated to the southern parts of Africa, the Americas, India, Melanesia, SE Asia and parts of the South Pacific. http://members.tripod.com/pointingbird/lostfeatherintl/id59.htm See more links at http://www.blackconsciousness.com - go to 'LINKS'
Yet, about 10,000 to 30,000 years ago, the Sahara was a thriving region. It was the place where humans began to practice agriculture, animal husbandry, and many aspects of civilization. In fact, one core area of these activities was and is the DAFUR, region, the site of an ancient kingdom older than Egypt itself. Yet, the people of Dafur who used to send their chariots to fight the Egyptians over 4,000 years ago, they are today the victims of destruction.
CALIFORNIA'S ANCIENT CENTRAL VALLEY 'INLAND SEA'
One of the reasons why it was believed that California was covered by water is BECAUSE IT WAS COVERED BY WATER. The Central region of California is a long 'lakebed' that is about 400 miles long and 125 miles wide. This area used to be covered with water as recently as the early 1900's. In fact, this is the body of water that the early visitors to California saw and thought that it was part of the Pacific ocean.
So, it is true that to the first Europeans and to others who visited California (including the Black Moors) may have seen the huge inland 'sea' now recently drained out of water. It is also a very fertile flatland in Central California that is below sea level.
Keep in mind also that one of the original races in California was in fact Negro and that the way their warriors dressed their hair could have made them appear wearing their hairdoo of some African women. See this picture of 'Califia' and of the Black Californian. http://community.webtv.net/pabarton ) The Black Californians were an independent Negro group who were not brought to the Americas as slaves. They were already in the US before Columbus and were among a very large group of Negro/Black people throughout the region WHO WERE ACTUALLY TARGETED TO BE ENSLAVE BY THE EUROPEAN CHURCH, WHO SAID THAT 'DESCENDENTS OF HAM,' (INCLUDING AMERICAN INDIANS, CHINESE, EAST ASIANS, EAST INDIANS, PACIFIC ISLANDERS, BLACK MOORS, BERBERS AND OTHERS OF 'HAMITIC' LINEAGE) WERE TO BE ENSLAVED.
(See references, "A History of the African-Olmecs," at http://www.authorhouse.com Check 'HISTORY TIMELINE,' http://community.webtv.net/nubianem
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-1-26 01:31 PM Subject: CALIFORNIA'S CENTRAL VALLEY WAS COVERED WITH WATER
One of the reasons why the Spanish thought that California was an Island is because they got that information from Black Moors living in Spain. In fact it was the same Spaniards who named the region 'California' after Queen Califia, the Black Amazon Queen said to rule over California, the Island 'at the end of the terrestrial plain.'
The person to mention that California was an 'island' ruled by a Black Amazon Queen was Ordonez de Montalvo who is said to have written the book, "Journey to Esplandian.' This book was based on knowledge of the 'New World' that came from the Black Moors of West/NorthWest Africa who ruled and controlled Spain for about 800 years.
The contribution of the Black Moors to Spain and to Europe is not usually discussed. In fact, there has been the effort to make the Black Moors of the Mahgrebi Region into 'Arabs.' Yet, these were African Negroes and not Semitic Arabs. (see http://www.mu-atlantis.com ) The Semitic Abbysid Arabs entered Spain about 1000 AD and when they arrived, the old racial animosity with the Black converts to Islam that goes back to ancient Arabia flared up in Spain. [If ever the chance is there, please read "Susu Economics," at http://www.authorHouse.com or read, "African Presence in Early Asia,' by Ivan Van Sertima and Runoko Rashidi, at Transaction Publications, New Bruinswick, New Jersey or check this link http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html )
The Black Moors (not Arabs, but these Africans who lived from Nigeria to Morocco and converted to Islam in the 700's AD, after inviting 'ulamas' or Muslim teachers from Egypt), did venture into the Americas for centuries before they became Muslims and for centuries up to the 1500's.
In fact, the very same Africans who of the prehistoric (and contemporary) cultural and linguistic group called 'Manding-Shi (Niger-Bantu) and Manding-Kush (Niger-Kordofan), and who entered the Americas in prehistoric times ( 30,000 BC, say Lutz, Van Sertima, Gladwin, et al.. - http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/3.htm ), these are the same Africans who entered the Americas with Emperor Ci before 3000 BC (Popul Vuh as translated by Sahagun) as well as later on up to the 1400's.
Another group of Africans from the Nubia-Egypt region also entered into the Americas. According to Zacharia Sitchin, excavations done by Mexican, American and other archeologists found the Egyptian-Nubian calender in Mexico. That calendar is said to have been brought to Mexico by Tehuti Mez (Thoth).
Take a look at these references http://www.mu-atlantis.com http://mu-atlantis.com http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/3.htm
The Moors invaded Spain in 711 AD. The leader of that invasion was Gabel Tarik who was a convert to Islam, as were the vast majority of Almohads or Black Moors. Moorish ships made frequent trips to the Americas and these Moors were called Califunami (one of the ethnic groups that some American Blacks living in the Florida/Virgin Island region and California/Central America belong to).
These Moors were widespread throughout the Americas and had a strong trading relationship. Black Moors were not 'Arabs,' but were Africans who converted to Islam.
The 'tawny' Moors or Arabs first entered Spain about 1000 AD. These Arabs were par of the Abbysid Dynasty based in Syria. As soon as the Arabs invaded Spain, they had conflict with the Black Moors who ruled spain. This conflict lasted for about 400 years and gradually, this division led to the eventual takeover of Spain by the Christians.
So, while the Black Moors ruled Spain, parts of southern Europe and were part of the intellectual power in Northern and Central Europe, they contributed to the renaissance that occurred in Spain and Portugal.
As for the region from Nigeria to Morocco, the hhistory is one unbroken line, even during slavery. The people who converted to Islam in the 700's were part of more ancient kingsoms that existed in West Africa and the South Western Sahara. The most ancient is the Zingh Empire (15,000 BC). Zingh was the Mother culture that gave way to Egyptian and Nubian-Ku**e civilization.
The Zingh (the name 'Zingh' is used by the Arabs as a name for Blacks) Empire stretched from Senegal to India. It was the first global empire (called the "Ethiopian Empire' in the Bible, and the empire founded by Cush in the West and Nimrod in the East after the Ice Age began to diminish and the Sahara became 'wet' and partly covered with inland seas, just as California was.
Today, much of the Sahara is dry and most of the ancient and prehhsitoric people have migrated to the southern parts of Africa, the Americas, India, Melanesia, SE Asia and parts of the South Pacific. http://members.tripod.com/pointingbird/lostfeatherintl/id59.htm See more links at http://www.blackconsciousness.com - go to 'LINKS'
Yet, about 10,000 to 30,000 years ago, the Sahara was a thriving region. It was the place where humans began to practice agriculture, animal husbandry, and many aspects of civilization. In fact, one core area of these activities was and is the DAFUR, region, the site of an ancient kingdom older than Egypt itself. Yet, the people of Dafur who used to send their chariots to fight the Egyptians over 4,000 years ago, they are today the victims of destruction.
CALIFORNIA'S ANCIENT CENTRAL VALLEY 'INLAND SEA'
One of the reasons why it was believed that California was covered by water is BECAUSE IT WAS COVERED BY WATER. The Central region of California is a long 'lakebed' that is about 400 miles long and 125 miles wide. This area used to be covered with water as recently as the early 1900's. In fact, this is the body of water that the early visitors to California saw and thought that it was part of the Pacific ocean.
So, it is true that to the first Europeans and to others who visited California (including the Black Moors) may have seen the huge inland 'sea' now recently drained out of water. It is also a very fertile flatland in Central California that is below sea level.
Keep in mind also that one of the original races in California was in fact Negro and that the way their warriors dressed their hair could have made them appear wearing their hairdoo of some African women. See this picture of 'Califia' and of the Black Californian. http://community.webtv.net/pabarton ) The Black Californians were an independent Negro group who were not brought to the Americas as slaves. They were already in the US before Columbus and were among a very large group of Negro/Black people throughout the region WHO WERE ACTUALLY TARGETED TO BE ENSLAVE BY THE EUROPEAN CHURCH, WHO SAID THAT 'DESCENDENTS OF HAM,' (INCLUDING AMERICAN INDIANS, CHINESE, EAST ASIANS, EAST INDIANS, PACIFIC ISLANDERS, BLACK MOORS, BERBERS AND OTHERS OF 'HAMITIC' LINEAGE) WERE TO BE ENSLAVED.
(See references, "A History of the African-Olmecs," at http://www.authorhouse.com Check 'HISTORY TIMELINE,' http://community.webtv.net/nubianem
Author: admchengho Time: 2006-1-26 10:40 PM
The answer will be out in about a week from now. Let's hope it shed more light on the truth and lend some weight to the claims that I put my foot down on American soil 601 years ago. I'll be very much vindicated!
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-27 10:46 AM Subject: Reply #75 admchengho's post
OK, for readers who doesn't know you, your handle admchengho = Admiral Zheng He
By the way, do you know some people including some scholars saying even if the carbon dating data proves the map was made in 1763, they still can't accept it? Some even said it was a fake made in the last 20 years.
But most fair-minded people want to keep an open mind and wait for the data.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-27 11:20 AM Subject: Reply #72 caringhk's post
Haha, that was also a question that jumped into my mind first when I wanted an easy solution because I heard of the cascade and Pacific Crest before. It's interesting that you raised the topic about San Andrea Fault.
But my brief search on San Andrea Fault didn't show any record prior to 1857. Also, i tend to think moving an entire island to join a mainland probably needs much more forces than a huge earth quake (but I am really not an expert on this.). Besides, I don't remember of reading anything like that about California in its last few centuries. Or is it because USA is too young to record anything a couple of centuries older?
Cheers!
Here is a brief description I found:
San Andreas Fault is a geological fault that spans a length of roughly 800 miles (1287 kilometers) through California, United States. The fault, a right-lateral strike-slip fault, marks a transform boundary between the Pacific Plate and the North American Plate. It is well-known for the large and destructive earthquakes that have occurred along it.
The San Andreas Fault has had three notable earthquakes in historic times:
1857 - 220 miles (350 kilometers) ruptured in central and southern California, from Parkfield to the Cajon Pass (southeast of Wrightwood).
1906 - 270 miles (430 kilometers) ruptured in Northern California, from San Juan Bautista to Eureka. The epicenter was near San Francisco.
19-89 - 25 miles (40 kilometers) ruptured near Santa Cruz, California
On September 28, 2004 at 10:15 am, a magnitude 6.0 earthquake struck at Parkfield, California on the San Andreas Fault.
Check out more details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Andreas_Fault
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-27 11:45 AM ]
Image Attachment:
180px-San_Andreas_Fault_-_Carrizo_Plains.jpg (2006-1-27 11:45 AM, 13.04 K) / Download count 200
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9743
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-27 11:41 AM Subject: Reply #74 jayzee's post
QUOTE:
CALIFORNIA'S ANCIENT CENTRAL VALLEY 'INLAND SEA'
One of the reasons why it was believed that California was covered by water is BECAUSE IT WAS COVERED BY WATER. The Central region of California is a long 'lakebed' that is about 400 miles long and 125 miles wide. This area used to be covered with water as recently as the early 1900's. In fact, this is the body of water that the early visitors to California saw and thought that it was part of the Pacific ocean.
So, it is true that to the first Europeans and to others who visited California (including the Black Moors) may have seen the huge inland 'sea' now recently drained out of water. It is also a very fertile flatland in Central California that is below sea level.
That's very interesting too! When I was thinking why the shape of island California on map 1418 differs from those Europeans' I thought about water level changing. And I read about the California Central Valley and Tulare Lake story after reading your last post:
Central Valley
California's geography is largely defined by its central feature--the Central Valley, a huge, fertile valley between the coastal mountain ranges and the Sierra Nevada. The northern part of the Central Valley is called the Sacramento Valley, after its main river, and the southern part is called the San Joaquin Valley (pronounced "san wahkeen"), after its main river. The whole Central Valley is watered by mountain-fed rivers (notably the San Joaquin, Kings, and Sacramento) that drain to the San Francisco Bay system. The rivers are sufficiently large and deep that several inland cities, notably Stockton, California, are seaports.
The southern tip of the valley has interior drainage and thus is not technically part of the valley at all. Tulare Lake, once 570 square miles and now dry and covered with agricultural fields, once filled much of the area.
Tulare Lake
Tulare Lake was a large shallow lake in the southern portion of the California Central Valley, about forty miles south of Fresno, that existed over one hundred years ago and presumably thousands of years before that. It is now a shallow basin and indistinguishable from the rest of the agricultural valley. Native Americans built reed boats and fished in this lake before the arrival of white settlers. The lake dried up over the course of a few decades as the Kaweah, Kern, Kings and Tule rivers, were diverted upstream and canals were built to drain the lake. In fact, aggressive groundwater pumping since the draining of the lake has resulted in a significant lowering of the water table, causing subsidence of the land. In 1849, the lake measured 570 square miles. Its size fluctuated from year to year due to varying levels of rainfall and snowfall, but by the end of the nineteenth century the lake had almost completely disappeared. Because the lake's basin remains, the lake occasionally reappears during floods following unusually high levels of precipitation, as it did in 1997.
Pretty much like what you said. But could this alone explain why California looked like an island hundreds of years ago? How about the areas above and below the Central Valley? What a fun question?!
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-27 11:43 AM ]
Image Attachment:
250px-Digital-elevation-map-california.gif (2006-1-27 11:43 AM, 24.36 K) / Download count 196
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9742
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-27 12:13 PM Subject: Some doubts about the map from Chinese scholars
The following are a number of questions raised among Chinese scholars about the map.
Most are about the use of names. For example,
1), Why geographic name or local names in Qing Dynasty could appear in a Ming map? For example the use of Da Qing Hai (大清海). For this Liu Gang's answer was that the map maker chose to use Qing name when he copied the map to please the Emperor because Qing Dynasty was ruled by Manchurians while Ming was ruled by Han. Manchurians were very sensitive about any hint of Ming (Some Hans still wanted to return to Ming Dynasty).
2) Why the name God (上帝) used on the map, asked by a Zhejiang scholar 龚缨晏, he argued that the name God (上帝) was used in China only after the Christian missionary 利玛窦 came to China. By the way, 龚缨晏 is a scholar studying 利玛窦.
My intuition is that Zheng He was a muslim, he certainly knew God and had a name for it. In fact, since his grandfather generation his family had travelled to many different countries by sea, as recorded in many Chinese sources.
When writing history, an scholar can quote an official source say the name God was first used by a famous person in certain occasions, but this doesn't necessarily mean that famous person was indeed the first person who used that name.
One acholar also denied that Chinese fleets had been to Cape of Good Hope, Africa, and insisted that the map was copied from European map.
http://it.21cn.com/discovery/lskg/2006/01/17/2438292.shtml
For the Africa story, I happened to run into the following news which is another interesting Chinese map about Africa. I will post in the next post.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-27 12:39 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-27 12:27 PM Subject: AFP: Ancient (Chinese) map of Africa poses questions
(Please note that this is a 2002 news)
The unveiling in South Africa's parliament on Monday of a replica of an ancient Chinese map of the then known world which includes a recognisable outline of Africa is raising intriguing questions of which foreigners first explored the continent.
"The idea is to take us beyond what we have been ... brainwashed into believing" declared Speaker Frene Ginwala at the opening of the exhibition, which includes other maps and rock art.
The "Da Ming Hun Yi Tu", the Amalgamated Map of the Great Ming Empire, dates back to 1389, decades before the first European voyages to Africa.
Among recognisable features are the Nile River and South Africas Drakensberg mountain range.
The map also shows a great lake, covering almost half the continents land mass. Researchers suggest it may have been drawn on the basis of an Arab legend that stated "farther south from the Sahara Desert is a great lake, far greater than the Caspian Sea".
(The biggest lake in Africa, Lake Victoria, is in fact only a fifth of the size of the Caspian Sea.)
"We have the worlds best researchers working on it," said parliaments senior researcher Heindri Bailey, who was hesitant about drawing conclusions from it.
"Until we are able to gain the knowledge we wont speculate on it."
The original of the map is housed in Beijing where it has remained wrapped up, sealed and stowed behind a locked door since the fall of Chinas last emperor in 1924. Fewer than 20 people have had access to it since then.
The digitised reproduction of the map on silk is almost four metres (around 12 feet) high and more than four metres across.
Place names are written mostly in Manchu, a now virtually extinct language, and still in need to be translated.
Karen Harris of the historical and heritage studies department at the University of Pretoria said that as early as the 1st century AD records had been found in China mentioning places in Africa.
"They had the capability, definitely," she said. "Theres not so much evidence to prove it, but it isnt a closed book yet."
Harris said that at the time the Chinese were seeking tribute and not trade for the emperor and therefore would not have set up bases or left behind significant markings as was the case with Europeans.
This, she said, would make it difficult to uncover evidence in support of Chinese having been there, adding: "You wouldnt find human remains because the Chinese took their bodies back to their ancestral lands."
But Bailey said some circumstantial evidence existed in South Africa to suggest the Chinese had navigated around Africa long before Bartolomeu Dias rounded the Cape of Good Hope in 1488.
"Chinese pottery has been found in (South Africas northern) Limpopo Province dating back to around the 13th century and there's rock art in the Eastern Cape depicting Chinese-looking characters," Bailey said.
British amateur researcher Gavin Menzies, a submarine engineer, argues in "1421", a book which came out this month, that Chinese admiral Zheng He circumnavigated the globe between 1421 and 1423, 100 years before the crew of Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan, who was killed en route.
Zheng He, a eunuch who never travelled with fewer than 300 ships, the biggest carrying 1000 people, is long known to have visited Asia, India, Gulf countries, and Somalia, from where he took back giraffes and lions.
The official history also mentions "Franca" (France and Portugal) and Holland, with the Hollanders described as tall people with red hair and beards.
To meet them in their homeland, Zheng He would have had to sail round the southern tip of Africa.
This is the first time that a copy of the map has been shown outside China. The original is a derivative of an even earlier one dated 1320, which was believed to have been destroyed.
That was before Zheng He's birth (he lived from 1371 to 1435), which deepens the mystery.
Some of the later European maps on show in parliament illustrate dragons, snakes and one-eyed monsters in the inland regions.
AFP http://cooltech.iafrica.com/science/184409.htm
Photo: A picture dated 11 November 2002 shows a detail on the Da Ming Hun Yi Tu (the Amalgamated Map of the Great Ming Empire) dating back to 1389 which is arguably the oldest world map in existence that accurately reflects the African continent.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-27 12:29 PM ]
Image Attachment:
africamap300_400_afp.jpg (2006-1-27 12:27 PM, 14.99 K) / Download count 208
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9744
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-27 12:34 PM Subject: BBC also reported: Africa's oldest map unveiled
By Alastair Leithead
BBC correspondent in Cape Town
Tuesday, 12 November, 2002, 08:26 GMT
The oldest map of the African continent, dating back to 1389, has gone on display in Cape Town.
It is part of an exhibition drawing attention to the history of South Africa and the way it is perceived around the world.
The Chinese map, covering more than 17 square metres, was produced in silk.
It is thought to be a copy of a map sculpted into rock 20 or 30 years earlier.
It is never been shown to the public before anywhere in the world, and the South African government was given special permission to take a full size facsimile of the delicate historical artwork.
The Da Ming Hun Yi Tu, or Amalgamated Map of the Great Ming Empire, is a unique snapshot of history.
Created in China in 1389, and clearly showing the shape of Africa, more than 100 years before Western explorers and map-makers reached the continent.
....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2446907.stm
Photo: The map clearly shows South Africa's Drakensberg mountain range and what may be an attempt to depict Lake Victoria and the River Nile. Picture: AFP
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-27 12:36 PM ]
Image Attachment:
africamap300_400_afp.jpg (2006-1-27 12:36 PM, 14.99 K) / Download count 212
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9745
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-1-27 10:01 PM Subject: AFRICA'S BLACK MOORISH, WEST AFRICAN, NUBIANS, EGYPTIAN, ETHIOPIANS IN AMERICA
The old African civilizations stretching from West Africa to the Swahili have hundreds of thousands of ancient books, scrolls and manuscripts. There are also maps (a piece of one dated over 4000 years here http://community.webtv.net/pabarton ).
Chinese may have visited the Americas in the Middle Ages, but my point is that a Black/Negro and Mongol Chinese Dynasty of ancient Southern China called the 'Black Shang' may have visited the Americas about 1000 BC.
About 3113 B.C., Tehuti Mez (Thoth) visited Mexoco.
'Meci' an African emperor also visited the Americas over five thousand years ago in eight ships. Meci was also called 'Ci.'
During the period of 800 AD to 1300 AD, the Black Moors of West/NW Africa also traded with the American Indians. (More references see "African Presence in Early America,' by Ivan Van Sertima, Transaction Publications. See also http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-1-30 01:47 AM Subject: WAIT AND SEE APPROACH
I think Chinese scholars are being cautious, but one aspect of Chinese history has to do with the destruction of books and the dispersal of prior civilizations before the Chou, the Chin and others.
The conclusion reached by many Black American and African historians, scholars and researchers is that indeed there was a migration from China before Columbus. However who migrated may even shock some Chinese who may or may not accept the fact that a Black 'Dimunitive Negroid' kingdom in Southern China related to the Shang and Shia were diposed when the Chou arrived. Here is what James Brunson says after studying the works of both modern and ancient Chinese scholars, Nubian-Kushi., Ethiopian and Swahili scholars about the ancient Chinese civilizations.
"The Shang (Chiang of Chi'ang) 1766 - 1100 B.C., is recognized as putting China on its history proper. This royal house is considered an offshoot of the Neolithic Lungshanoid culture, giving it a long unbroken tradition. Many Chinese archeologists are convinced that the Shang settlement at Erh-li-tou (in southern Shansi, and northwestern Honan) is the arliest evidence of their existence. Traditionally, the territory of the Hsia dynasty, Erh-li-tou, is believed to be the site of Po; capital of King T'ang or Ta, founder of the Shang Dynasty. As mentioned, these people were initially matrilinear in culture, worshipping a mother goddess, and practicing agriculture. They had a priesthood, and practiced religioius ceremonies that included a form of 'sati' burial. Aquainted with metal-working in bronze, the makng of a form of porcelain ware, and silk-weaving (ana invention of southern China), the Shang people are credited with bringing together the elements of China's earliest known civilization."
(African Presence in Early Asia: pub. by Transaction Pub., New Bruinswick, NJ: Edt. by Runoko Rashidi, Ivan Van Sertima. Essay by James Brunson.)
WHO EXACTLY WERE THE SHANG?
Brunson continues, "Two distinct racial types seemed to have co-existed in China, one Mongoloid, and the other Negroid. The Shang were a dimunitive Black race. Those that migrated from the west amalgamated, perhaps, into the indigenous population, and infused new cultural ideas. (Some scholars say the Shang were actually the Channan or Canaanites who were a branch of the Black race - Descendents of Ham, who first migrated to Turkey, then to Central Asia, then to Southern China. Others say the Shang were a combination of Melanesian Negroids, Chinese Mongols and African Cushiitics from Mesopo$$ia) "However, when the Chou onquered and usurped the political power of the Shang Dynasty, they described the inhabitants as having 'black and oily skin.'
"The patrilinear Chou clans, after taking the Shang capital Anyang (there is also an ancient city and ethnic group called 'Anyang' in Cameroon/Nigeria border area, whose languages actually sounds like an archaic form of Chinese and whose names sound like Chinese names) INTEGRATED FULLY WITH THE MATRILINEAR SHANG POPULATION. Befor the demise of the Shang Dynasty, one can witness vestiges of the patrilinear culture emerging. Inheritance through the female line began to play a decreasing role, until the cultural element fully disappeared. This process of infiltration or amalgamation with a dominant cult ure has been seen in Egypt and Western Asia (Sumer)" (pg. 128)
The 'Black Shang' are said to be related to Melanesian Negroids, Africans and African Cushiites of Mesopo$$ia. After they were deposed, the intellectuals remained in China, along with the Black population who later fused with the altaic Mongol to create the present 'yellowish-brown' Southern Chinese population. In fact, the Polynesians are the living example of the ancient fusing of Black and Mongol in Southern China. The fact that the Hawaiians and other Polynesians are shown to be more Negroid (at least before the mixing) and have tall and robust East African Negro body frame and speak a lanuage related to East African languages, clearly gives a clue (see this issue discussed in the magazine, Scientific American, the cover has the faces of Chinese children).
So, it is clear that the Black Shang migrated to Polynesia (which was previouisly occupied by Black Melanesians, and still is today). However others migrated far out into the Pacific and may have reached ancient Mexico about 1000 BC.
THE MANDING-SHI AND THE PREHISTORIC AFRICAN SETTLEMENT OF AMERICA
Before the arrival of the Black and Mongol Shang or Shia from China into Mexico, the occupants were Black Manding-Shi from the Sahara. The great surprise is that both the Manding-Shi and the Shang as well as the Black Shia are linguistically related and are racially Black Negroid people. (THE MONGOL SHIA, MONGOL SHANG AND OTHERS MOVED INTO SOUTHERN CHINA FROM THE NORTH).
About 3113 B.C., as recorded in African texts, Tehuti established a kingdom in Mexico. Tehuti Mez was called "Thoth' by the Greeks and was considered to be the master of intellectual persuits and the writer of many books on subjects like mathematics, language, geography, science, philosophy, chemistry (Khem- mystry meaning KHEMITE MYSTERIES OR 'BLACK MYSTRIES) and other subjects.
According to Zakaria Sitchin ( see http://www.ancien$$erica.com ), Toth established the African-Khemetic (Egyptian, Nubian, West African) solar calendar in Mexico in the Year of 3113 B.C. In fact this calendar is still used in Africa for various reasons. It is also the calendar that the Kwanzaa 'Mtende' festival (Solar Equanox celebrations; March 22 or when it falls) is based on.
They Maya Indians who adopted this calendar from the Manding-Shi (Olmecs) consider the year 3113 B.C. to be the beginning of their culture. That year was the date the Africans began to organize themselves in Mexico.
The Manding-Shi were one branch of the prehistoric Manding-Speaking people whose culture and civilization was the 'Mother Culture' that gave birth to Egypt, Nubia-Kush, Olmec Mexico, Waschitaw, Indus Valley, Nok-Wagadu, Ghana-Wagadu and the various cultures in the South Pacific and South East Asia.
The Manding-Shi language was well established in the 'WET' Sahara about 20,000 years ago during the AQUATIC CIVILZATION. This language spread all the way to SE Asia and Melanesia. One group recorded t o have migrated about 30,000 BC were the ancestors of some of the Fijians and Melanesians, the Southern Chinese and some Australian Aborigines.
It is facinating that even today, there are people in East Africa and the Sahara who resemble Australian Aboriginals and the Black Cambodian type. In fact the name 'Khmer' is said by historians to be a version of 'Khmet' which means 'Black.'
The name "Cham' also comes from the Egypt ian word for 'Black,' which is 'Chem' or 'Kham"
Finally, the table of Nations places all the people from all Africa to Southern China as descendents of Ham. Ham was the Son of Noah. Ham was Black and Ham had a Black wife called 'Egyptus."
Noah had three sons:
Shem - Arabs, Jews, Persians
Ham - Africans, Asians, East Indians, Negritoes, Aboriginal Australians, American Indians (Negroid and Mongoloiod Peoples)
Japhet - Western Europeans, Eastern Europeans (Caucasians)
Ham had four Sons:
Cush - Africans south of Egypt; Indo-Negroid South Indians of India; Some Negroid American Indians like the Waschitaw, Manding-Shi Olmecs, Califunami, Caracoles, Guanini and others.
Phut - Libyans, Algerians, Morocans (Berbers, Black Berbers)
Mizraim: Black Egyptians, Copts (Arab Egyptians are Shemites)
Canaan: Canaan's descendents include some people in Palestine today, including the Black Palestinians (Tribe of Aswad). They also include some of the Africans of West Africa.
Canaan had a son who gave birth to the Hitite people of Turkey. The appearance of Canaan's son was similar to that of the Black African people of Southern Africa, like the Kong, !Kung, San, Mangbetu, Zulu and others with the 'Mongol' features like epicantus fold, high ckeekbones, small stature (in Africa the stature ranges from small Kong to tall Zulu and Merci groups.
The Hittites were from the Canaan or Channan group. In fact the Jews have what some call the 'Mongol spot,' which is a brownish birthmark on the backs of African Kong-San, Jews, American Indians, East Asians.
The descendents of Canaan first settled the very land where Isreal, Jordan, Lebanon is located today. They migrated to Central Asia and from there migrated to China. (THIS IS THE VIEW THAT CHRISTIANS TAKE IN REGARDS TO THE ORIGINS OF THE CHINESE AND OTHER MONGOLOID PEOPLE)
GREAT RESEARCH MATERIAL ON ANCIENT PEOPLE OF THE AMERICAS
http://community.webtv.net/barnubianempire
http://community.webtv.net/pabarton
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html
http//www.cwo.com/~lucumi/boddy.html
FIRST CHINESE
http://www.trinicenter.com/FirstChinese.htm
TABLE OF NATIONS - LINEAGE OF EAST ASIANS
http://www.soundchristian.com/man/
http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/1.htm
http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/6.htm
http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/3.htm
The scientific view suprisingly seems to match the religious view.
So, searching for Chinese visits to the Americas may have to go before Cheng Ho. Chinese scholars and historians may also have to revisit the Black Shang and Black Shia of Southern China (the 'Barbarian' Kingdoms of the South) and determine what happened to the Black Shia and Black Shang after they were overthrown by the Mongoloid Chou Dynasty.
"Susu Economics," and "A History of the African-Olmecs," at AuthorHouse.com also see http://community.webtv.net/pabarton )
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-31 10:49 AM Subject: Reply #82 jayzee's post
QUOTE:
There are also maps (a piece of one dated over 4000 years here... ).
Could you please post the map dated over 4000 years, jayzee ? I would be interested to see.
Thanks.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-31 11:09 AM Subject: Reply #83 jayzee's post
QUOTE:
I think Chinese scholars are being cautious, but one aspect of Chinese history has to do with the destruction of books and the dispersal of prior civilizations before the Chou, the Chin and others.
I am afraid that that's not the reason why Chinese scholars are being cautious about this map. In fact, the map was made much later than Shang, or Zhou or Qin dynasty which were 2000 - 4000 years ago. In comparison Ming dynasty and Qing dynasty almost like yesterday in Chinese history, only a few hundreds of years back.
When Emperor Qin united China, yes, he destroyed some languages to UNITE the Chinese language. This may have contributed even more for Chinese history recording. Imagine how difficult to deal with multiple languges in interpreting ancient records especially because some of the languages inevitably got lost in the course of history.
It may well be possible that Chinese or other people such as Africans had set their foot in Americas before Zheng He. As I mantioned earlier that I believe Chinese had already accumulated a lot navigation knowledge before Zheng He. Chinese Emperor Zhu Di would not have sent the huge fleets led by Zheng He otherwise. But in this case, we are looking for more systematic evidences for who first explored the world as whole. That's why we are talking about maps, and supporting evidences.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-31 11:12 AM ]
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-1-31 11:14 AM
It is on a website and unfortunately, I can't cut and paste with this computer. But if you look, maybe you will find it. It's really not a 'map' compared to maps from 1500's, but its an old version of what THAT part of the world (Middle East, Egypt, N. Africa, ect.). here http://community.webtv.net/pabarton
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-1-31 11:43 AM
Here is a more specific direction: First check this link http://community.webtv.net/pabarton
or http://www.community.webtv.net/pabarton
then go to the FIFTH ESSAY. "A History of the African-Olmecs: Blacks of America before Columbus." There are some drawings of old maps there.
That first map and the second is based on Egyptian-Phonecian maps.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-31 11:52 AM Subject: Reply #83 jayzee's post, again, on Chinese understanding of ...
Chinese history and Chinese origin
I decided to make a detour to talk a little about Chinese history and Chinese understanding of our ancesters, or say, the Chinese origin, thanks to your persistant interest about the origin of our human. Your posts certainly made an impression about Black Moore in my mind. But it also strikes me to think about the Peking Men, who lived some 200,000 to 700,000 years ago near today's Beijing.
First, about Chinese history. It's true that Chinese have a continuous written recording about our history since Shang dynasty, however, I know Chinese civilization extends far earlier than Shang dynasty. I in fact, have a lot materials about this but this is kind of off the main topic here on this thread.
Here is one site that you could get an idea: The timeline of Chinese history
Now, about Chinese origin.
In fact, Yuanmou Man, who lived 1.7 million years ago was the first Homo erectus ever found within the boundaries of China. Were they migrated from Africa?
Chinese scholars believe that "The large amount of palaeoanthropological fossils found in China suggest that Yuanmou Man of 1.7 million years ago, New Cave Man of 100,000 years ago, Upper Cave Man of 18,000 years ago and Jalai Nur Man of 10,000 years ago all had high cheekbones, flat nose bridges and spade-shaped upper front teeth, which are all characteristics of modern man in China, indicating genetic stability and evolutionary continuity. In particular, the span of 330,000 years from Peking Man, to New Cave Man and Upper Cave Man, who all made their home in the Zhoukoudian area, effectively testifies to the fact that the yellow race evolved from a local ape."
"The results of the most recent study, made public in March 2000, however, once again favored scholars in China in their theory of human origin. The Shu Ape, a primate weighing only 100 to 150 grams and being similar to a mouse in size, lived in the Middle Eocene Epoch 4.5 to 4 million years ago. Its discovery posed a great challenge to the theory of African origin of the human race."
"The Shu Ape is to date the smallest primate animal ever discovered. Carrying the characteristics of both the advanced and lower primates, it was the link between the lower to the advanced primates."
"Chinese palaeontologist Qi Tao believes that the discovery of the Shu Ape fossils solved two issues: One was that it pushed back the time of origin of advanced primates by 10 million years, and the other was that it moved the place of origin of advanced primates from Africa to East Asia. The discovery's great significance poses a strong challenge to the important position the African continent has so far held in theories of man's evolution."
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-31 11:59 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-31 12:02 PM Subject: Reply #87 jayzee's post
Thanks, I will read the site...
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-1-31 12:16 PM Subject: Still waiting for the carbon dating data...
For those who would like to know more about Gavin Menzies' theory and many of his supporting evidences about who first explored the world, here is a good reference page that gives a lot interesting details.
I haven't read them through because I feel overwhelming. Instead, I am just following my own instincts, ask questions, and search for answers. I will read when I have more time...
Here is the web page. AFter opening the page you will find under each section, there are tons of materials one could study.
http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/index.asp
Her is only a list of the content:
Frontispiece
Part I .i The Europeans Reached the New World with copies of Chinese Maps
Part I .ii The Discovery of the World
Part I.iii - Zheng He's integrated map of the world, 1418
Part II Medieval Chinese knowledge and the Fleets
Part III - Evidence of the Voyages of Zheng He Fleets
Part IV - Papers referred to in Genetics Study
Part V The Trading System created by the Chinese - taken over by the Europeans
Part VI Annexes - Evidence of Chinese Fleets visit to specific places all round the world
Part VII Appendices - The Genetic Legacy of the Zheng He Fleets
Part VIII Appendices - Work in Progress
Part IX - Independent Research
Independent Research - Cedric Bells survey of New Zealand
New Zealand Update - Antonia Bowen-Jones
Independent Website - Alaska and the Bering Straits - Joseph Davis
Independent website - New Zealand
Independent website - The Piasa
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-1-31 12:18 PM ]
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-1-31 02:33 PM Subject: HOMO ERECTUS IS OF AFRICAN ORIGINS: 7 MILLION YEARS APE-MAN FROM CHAD
Homo Erectus came from Africa. However humanoids were migrating from Africa over one million years ago. Thy were not migrating northward because the region was covered in ice. However, the ealiest evidence of almost human-type ape was found recently in Chad. It was about 7 million years old.
These days, scientists and anthropologists don't wait on skulls alone. There is DNA AND MITCHONDRIAL FACTOR.
Humans today do not have any genetic linkage to neanderthal or homoerectus...these types were branches that did out, among with others such as Java Man and others. Peking Man was not Peking Man. If you do some study on that you will see what I am saying.
As af af the 'shovel-shaped' teeth found in Mongoloids. Are you aware that this feature is found in Buhmen as well. They hav been humanoid for about one million years. In fact, the Bushman also have high cheekbones and epicantus fold since they are living in the high and very cold parts of South Africa. They were once spread from South AfRICA ALL THE WAY TO SIBERIA IN PREHISTORIC TIMES AND ARE ONE BRANCH OF THE NEGRO RACE.
Science, archeology and anthropology have more wait than religious teachings and mythological beliefs. But one thing is clear. Most Christians classify Jews and Arabs as Semitic. Western Europeans and Eastern Europeans are Jephetic. Africans, East Indians, Melanesians, Chinese, Philipinos, Mongolians, Japanese, Australian Aborigines are Hamitic. Hamitic meaning their origins is Negrooid.
When looks at the Chinese of Japanese face (say like the skater Kwan, or Emperor Pu Yi of Ocupied Manchuria, or many Southern Chinese....there are features classified as Negroid.
Ask a Christian why this is so and they will say that East Asians are descendents of Canaan, one of Ham's sons. Specifically, the first people to establish a culture and civilization in East Asia (China specifilcally) were the descendents of Sin, who was from the line of Heth and from Canaan.
The first 'brachyphalic' (round-headed) type were not found in China, but in Southern France. The name was "CompeCombelle Man" ( approx 15,000 years) and that is the prototype for today's Mongoloid people. At the same time, the Cromagnon is the prototype for the Caucasian (30,000 years). The Grimaldi Negroid, Omo 1 and Kanjera Man are the prototype for the Black race (1,000,000 years - South Africa to 150,000 years).
Perhaps over tens of thousands of years of mixing with Caucasian types in Siberia, the Mongloid and previously Negroid populations in that region changed to the Northern Mongoloid type. At the same time, people living in the South and South East of China maintained some Negroid features or became a mixture like the Polynesians.
So, I happen to be one of these people who think that humans are genetically from one source. Is that far-fetched? Not according to DNA and Mitochondrial DNA. Moreover, look at the dogs we have today. They all came from a single type of dog that is related to the African dog that migrated with humans to India, Australia, East Asia, the Americas and Europe.
Yet today, we have types of dogs ranging from the poodle and daschund to the Doberman and Alstasian or German Shepard. Still, the founding type of dog still exists in Africa and India today.
That appears to be the same story with humans. Before people were able to live in China or Europe or North America, they lived in the tropical belt. During the Ice Age, the tropical belt was very hot and humid or very hot and dry. That was between 150,000 to about 10,000 years ago. Within that period of time, other racial types came into being because migrations to the Northern regions after the ice began to melt about 30,000 years ago to 10,000 years ago made settlement in the North Easy.
Even then, after migrating North, those Africoids who moved North, they adapted to the climate and that is why there is light skin in the North. 'Yellowish' skin is actually one of the shades of skin color that African Negroes have. In fact the shades are 'blue-black' black, brown, reddish brown, yellowish-brown, 'high-yellow.' The only 'pink-white' Negroes are albinos. MOST NEGROES/BLACKS ARE THE RANGE OF SKIN COLORS MENTIONED.
If we look at the version that most Christians believe, it is that the founder of Chinese people was a descendent of Ham. Now could that be possible. Was that founder Fu-Shi? Christians say it wasa a son of Canaan called 'Sin.'
Science says the Chinese are connected to Africans and people in the West and did not come from a separate 'species' of humanoid.
The Homo Erectus and forms of prehistoric humanoid were not fully human. Their 'frontal lobes' were not properly developed. The frontal lobe is important for making logical decisions.
DID THE ANCIENT CHINESE DESCEND FROM CHANNAN, THE SON OF HAM? See
http://www.soundchristian.com/man/
http://community.webtv.net/nubianem
http://www.raceandhistory.com (ANCIENT HISTORY)
http://www.trinicenter.com/FirstChinese.htm
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-1 12:42 PM Subject: Reply #91 jayzee's post
Correct, these days scientists do use DNA and MITOCHONDRIAL method to study human evolution, that include Chinese scientists. However, we should also be able to explain the evolution in step by step fashion to make a full picture how all it happened in order to be truely scientific. That's what's missing here by solely depending on DNA data, to my knowledge.
As this 7 million year old skull showed, the huamn evolution is far more complex than what we thought. It seems that the newly discovered skull finally puts to rest any idea that there might be a single "missing link" between humans and chimpanzees.
And we still don't know what happened between the period of 4 million and 7 milion years ago.
If we put the question of genetic trace and the physical location of the human origion aside for a moment, the Chinese scientists did present a challenging question -- how to interpret the genetic stability and evolutionary continuity found in China? -- Yuanmou Man of 1.7 million years ago, New Cave Man of 100,000 years ago, Upper Cave Man of 18,000 years ago and Jalai Nur Man of 10,000 years ago, as well as Peking Man who lived some 200,000 to 700,000 years ago. They showed strong correlation to modern man in China today.
Please note that in particular, the span of 330,000 years from Peking Man, to New Cave Man and Upper Cave Man, who all made their home in the Zhoukoudian area. So it's not unreasonable to say it indicated that the yellow race may have evolved from a local ape.
Also, how did these ancient men who had a long period of genetic stability and evolutionary continuity disappeared? Yet, the modern Chinese so coincidentally connected to them?
http://www.china.org.cn/e-gudai/1.htm
Some scientists believe that the origin of modern man was an African woman who lived 200,000 years ago, and her gene wiped out all the other hominids, it sounds a bit too simple to me.
In my opinion, we still need to discover a lot before making any assertions on our human origin/evolution.
Anyway, it's been an interesting detour, and I hope we can get back to the MAP story now. You might be able to give us some interesting points if you read the Menzies site I posted earlier.
Messy evolution: scientists are having hard time to work out how the different huminids relate to each other:
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-7 12:14 PM ]
Image Attachment:
_38126752_hominid_tree2_150.gif (2006-2-1 12:43 PM, 7.79 K) / Download count 216
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=9964
Author: wowzers Time: 2006-2-1 02:30 PM
I don't understand how this map can be authenticated.
Just because it is proven real doesn't mean it is a copy of an older version.
It would be great if it could be.
It would be a very exciting development for China.
Author: tris06 Time: 2006-2-1 08:24 PM
As Far as I know about european history concerning africa was the explorations made my the carthagians and the phonesians. They were trading on a regular basis with the places like congo, ivory coast and ect. The unforunate thing was that 99% of the writings were lost when rome conquered carthage. who knows how many civs had been to america and back. I'm sure that the chinese nor the vikings were the first, but alot of the classical information of rome and before, carthage, greeks, Eygptians was lost. I think we only know the most basic things about our past.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-5 08:48 AM Subject: Reply #93 wowzers's post
QUOTE:
I don't understand how this map can be authenticated.
Just because it is proven real doesn't mean it is a copy of an older version.
You should also ask if it's proven real, can you arbitrarily deny it's not from an older version? Menzies' has already said - Ancient people wouldn't lie for today's benefit.
Besides, did you read the content of my post #90?
Keep an open mind.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-2-6 03:24 PM Subject: Reply #95 shanhuang's post
QUOTE:
Menzies' has already said - Ancient people wouldn't lie for today's benefit.
Very strong argument. Indeed, the ancients don't lie for the benefit of today's people. The test results that will be coming out from the university in New Zealand will determine the date of the map, but it will not make or break the theory of Zheng He's expeditions to all the seven continents through his four vice-admirals who spread out from the Persian Gulf after sailing from China and gathering in the Gulf.
Keep an open mind is right. No one is bestowing upon the Chinese anything that smacks like a hoax.
In fact, the Chinese scholars are the most vociferous in opposing this theory. Even as late as last week a feature story on Zheng He on CCTV-9 did not mention anything beyond Zheng He's trips to East Africa.
But not even the Chinese scholars will be able to deny the facts when they appear one after another.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-2-6 07:19 PM
QUOTE:
Perhaps over tens of thousands of years of mixing with Caucasian types in Siberia, the Mongloid and previously Negroid populations in that region changed to the Northern Mongoloid type. At the same time, people living in the South and South East of China maintained some Negroid features or became a mixture like the Polynesians.
So, I happen to be one of these people who think that humans are genetically from one source. Is that far-fetched? Not according to DNA and Mitochondrial DNA. Moreover, look at the dogs we have today. They all came from a single type of dog that is related to the African dog that migrated with humans to India, Australia, East Asia, the Americas and Europe.
Even dogs all came from Africa?
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-9 12:53 PM Subject: Reply #96 wchao37's post
QUOTE:
In fact, the Chinese scholars are the most vociferous in opposing this theory. Even as late as last week a feature story on Zheng He on CCTV-9 did not mention anything beyond Zheng He's trips to East Africa.
But not even the Chinese scholars will be able to deny the facts when they appear one after another.
That's right. I have been tracing why. I think it takes alot understanding of the way how Qing court or even Ming court treated its servants. For a long time Zheng He's achievement was left cold, no appraciation until probably Liang Qi Chao, the comtemporary Chinese scholar and thinker, to pick up Zheng He's story. It's heart breaking that so much has been lost. For that we Chinese need to reflect on our own fault.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-9 12:55 PM ]
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-2-9 01:39 PM Subject: Reply #98 shanhuang's post
I agree. It is our own fault. As children we were taught that Zheng He was a eunuch first and seafarer second.
Any European country would have taught that he is a seafarer first and eunuch second.
That means in China the social status of a man determined how high his achievement in the secular world could be.
That's why men like Pi Sheng who invented movable type printing weren't being touted like folk heroes such as Yue Fei.
With the new culture in our new China this attitude is bound to change, since most of new leaders now hail from the engineering departments of top universities.
Liang Qi Chao was the eye-opening reform man who through his books like "Yinbingce Wenji" taught us a lot during those high school days. I was fascinated by his essays such as the one about "inspiration" which he translated into Cantonese Chinese, and called it "in si pei lei xun."
Anyway, many diamonds in the rough were not discovered until it was given a new lease in life by viewing it through a different perspective.
Author: china4life Time: 2006-2-9 06:38 PM Subject: In Russia they said a russian invented the light bulb
What do you mean discoverd China?
there were indians already living there. They didn't discover anything....
Reminds me of thoes stupid Mt.Everst programs. taking about how the first man to climb to the top of everest..But they should say the first white rich guy to go to the top of everest while the natives carried all of his crap up behind him...............
it is all to get some kind of patriotic orgy.....................
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-2-9 07:12 PM Subject: Reply #100 china4life's post
No, shanhuang was right.
He certainly saw the rough in the diamond in you.
Mind you everyone is a diamond in the rough.
Yeah we are talking about the discovery of America and you talk about the discovery of China.
That figures.
Author: china4life Time: 2006-2-10 11:19 AM Subject: WHAT?
I didn't' say anything about the discovery of china..
I am saying there were indians living in America for thousands of years before anybody got there...They discovred it....they were there all ready!!!!!
And what signiiicance is it anyway if a chinese person "discovered" America anyway? What does that mean? It is just a chance to get another injection of nationolist pride......
and you may know they now think that maybe it was the indians that went East....They discovered Mummies in Egypt with traces of Cocain and tabacco which are only grown in the Americas at that time.....
and the think perhaps the city of atlantis was in America................so how did the egyptians know about atlantis?? because the indians were crossing the atlantic trading with egypt.............
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-10 11:56 AM Subject: Reply #102 china4life's post
QUOTE:
It is just a chance to get another injection of nationolist pride......
Are you saying searching European sea exploration history such as Columbus discovered America is also an injection of nationalist pride?
Please remember, it is a British, Gavin Menzies, who is leading this Chinese history exploration.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-10 11:58 AM ]
Author: china4life Time: 2006-2-10 12:16 PM Subject: Indifferent
I don't care who discoverd anything....All a country is is dirt trees and som water....
It is all just a name on a map part of the world.....
And a country is made by conquest...................(murder and raping of natural resources) and then they force a system onto tribal people..............control them, educate them. then before you know it you got citizens!!! Of a country!!!! That pay taxes and fight for the interests of the rich rulers!!!!!
What you gonna say next? The Chinese were the first to make the aqua duct before the Romans??
Yeah i saw that on the tv too...................It is all done with a Nationalist slant to instill Nationlist pride.....keeping the system intact........................
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-10 12:54 PM Subject: Reply #104 china4life's post
QUOTE:
What you gonna say next? The Chinese were the first to make the aqua duct before the Romans??
I have said long time ago on this thread. I am interested in this map, I want learn about Chinese sea exploration history. Anything wrong with it?
Too much imagination you had there and too much unhappiness too.
Author: china4life Time: 2006-2-10 06:39 PM Subject: That's great!!!
Yeah, Exloration history is interetiing......
Like i said I watched this program about the Indains (Mayans) discovering the East long before Columbus or even the Chinese coming to the Americas..................
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-10 07:58 PM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 10-2-2006 03:56
Please remember, it is a British, Gavin Menzies, who is leading this Chinese history exploration.
And he also can't read Chinese, so he didn't cite any primary sources. Just because someone is not Chinese doesn't mean their research about China is not fuelled by a desire to "believe". He's not even a historian, just an ex-navy boy.
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/15.2/finlay.html
http://www.kenspy.com/Menzies/
http://hnn.us/articles/1308.html
Ultimately, however, Menzies's presentation in 1421 is much like that delivered at the United Nations recently by Secretary of State Powell regarding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction: convincing only to true believers and leaving others at best, in the words of the old hymn, "almost persuaded."
You won't find many academics supporting what he has to say, either in or outside China. In fact I haven't come across any historians that support the full extent of his claims. His book is useful in raising awareness about the voyages, but sadly his unsupported claims undermine the work as a whole.
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-10 08:11 PM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by christopher_104 at 19-1-2006 09:37
Norway also claims Norsemen discovered America first but this Chinese map is much older.
!? The Scandanvians reached North America centuries before the original map that this was supposed to have been copied from was made.......
QUOTE:
I would like to see an academic debate on this map as I feel it could well prove china discovered
the Americas first.
Unfortuantely academic discussion has heavily criticised his wider claims, so I don't think there's any debate for you to look at. Unless you just want to read people highlighting the serious flaws his methods and conclusions.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-11 12:20 PM Subject: Reply #108 mencius's post
Einstein was a school dropout, many times. When he had his first academic publication, he was a librarian. Does this mean his Relativty and Quantum theories are bogus, nonsense?
So far, many Gavin Menzies' evidences are based on western sources, what's wrong if he doesn't know Chinese? More and more Chinese and scholars are joining him now. Did you read the following on the first page?
“The format of the map is totally consistent with the level of knowledge that we should expect of royal Chinese geographers following the voyages of Zheng He,” says Mr Thompson.
Do you know who is Thompson? You keep making the same mistake -- speaking without reading a thread history.
All of your statements are on general terms, nothing came down on hard data or evidences. If you truely want to understand the map, talk about something in detail.
Here is what I have already posted on post #90. Obviously you didn't read:
For those who would like to know more about Gavin Menzies' theory and many of his supporting evidences about who first explored the world, here is a good reference page that gives a lot interesting details.
I haven't read them through because I feel overwhelming. Instead, I am just following my own instincts, ask questions, and search for answers. I will read when I have more time...
Here is the web page. AFter opening the page you will find under each section, there are tons of materials one could study.
http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/index.asp
Her is only a list of the content:
Frontispiece
Part I .i The Europeans Reached the New World with copies of Chinese Maps
Part I .ii The Discovery of the World
Part I.iii - Zheng He's integrated map of the world, 1418
Part II Medieval Chinese knowledge and the Fleets
Part III - Evidence of the Voyages of Zheng He Fleets
Part IV - Papers referred to in Genetics Study
Part V The Trading System created by the Chinese - taken over by the Europeans
Part VI Annexes - Evidence of Chinese Fleets visit to specific places all round the world
Part VII Appendices - The Genetic Legacy of the Zheng He Fleets
Part VIII Appendices - Work in Progress
Part IX - Independent Research
Independent Research - Cedric Bells survey of New Zealand
New Zealand Update - Antonia Bowen-Jones
Independent Website - Alaska and the Bering Straits - Joseph Davis
Independent website - New Zealand
Independent website - The Piasa
Keep an open mind, Read and talk about hard data.
Please do yourself a favor. Try to conduct some meaningful debate rather than spinning all over the forum. It's a waste of your time. If you keep doing this on my threads, I will ignore you.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-11 12:35 PM ]
Author: admchengho Time: 2006-2-11 04:30 PM
China4life:
what signiiicance is it anyway if a chinese person "discovered" America anyway? What does that mean? It is just a chance to get another injection of nationolist pride
I watched this program about the Indains (Mayans) discovering the East long before Columbus or even the Chinese coming to the Americas
Prrffttt.... LOL
[ Last edited by admchengho at 2006-2-11 04:33 PM ]
Author: china4life Time: 2006-2-11 06:19 PM Subject: Of course
Of course I leave a reply but it dissapears.........................hmmm wonder why?
Author: tris06 Time: 2006-2-11 06:44 PM
yeah I don't know why but they seem to like to claim alot. bothin early times the civilisations in china and europe were at the same level through their own discoveries.
some one said somthing about the fact that the chinese had a years supplies of food and ect. but must realies how long it took for ships to sail in the old days. plus the fact that the chinese ship were built like oil tankers not for speed. I doubt the chinese could have gone from india to america and back in time before the supplies ran out. yes they had 20,000 people on board but that also becomes a penalty by having to feed them especially if as menzie said. They stayed in the americas repairing some ships. I doubt they could feed so many men.Plus if they had no source of vitimin c from fresh fruit they would have died within in two years. just like 80% of the spanish crew that wen't around the world.
Its just a dream so far.
And this map has many flaws.
when serious academic people back up menzies then I will review my opinion.
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-11 08:22 PM Subject: shan
Lol, you can't compare Einstein and Menzies - they're working in completely different areas! Mathematics is about just that. You can invent/create it yourself. Whereas with history you have to approach the subject with a certain kind of discipline and understanding of how to use sources.
I have seen that page already. And wow, one guy has said this map looks genuine. I should point out that discussion of the map is separate from Menzies' work, as it only came to light after the publishing of the book. Liangzai pointed out that the map was rather suspicious, especially as it shows California as an island and seems to show the American rivers quite clearly.
I have not just read plenty of history, I have also studied at university - did you do a History degree at university? I provided you with information on people that have raised questions over Menzies' research and they are serious ones. Neither you nor I are experts in this field, so how can you dismiss their views so easily? Is it because you want to believe? I suggest you do yourself a favour and open your mind to the possibility Menzies has over-exaggerated something that didn't need to be.
Seriously how many professional historians, inside or outside of China, have you come across (apart from this Thompson chap) that support Menzies? Because from what I hear he has his critics both inside and outside of China. Really I would like to know, as you're implying you know more about this field that I do. So please show me how many professional historians support him.
Here is another interesting page, from a lecture given by another naval officer:
http://www.dightonrock.com/refutation_to_gavin_menzies.htm
[ Last edited by mencius at 2006-2-11 12:27 PM ]
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-11 10:28 PM Subject: Here's a very interesting quotation from a Chinese scholar
http://en.ce.cn/Life/arts&he ... 60114_5827950.shtml
China, usually swift to hail its triumphs, has been reluctant to take up the theory, even though, if true, it would revolutionise the Chinese contribution to world history.
Zhu Jianqiu, an oceanographer with the Chinese navy and a scholar at the Nanjing Zheng He Institute, said: "In 1421 many maps are mentioned but none of them has anything to do with Zheng He. Chinese scholars cannot share the opinions of Mr Menzies."
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-12 09:59 AM Subject: Reply #113 and #114 mencius's post
QUOTE:
Lol, you can't compare Einstein and Menzies - they're working in completely different areas! Mathematics is about just that.
So, who should LOL, mencius? you call Einstein a mathematician? I told you to read and understand before saying anything. Einstein is a PHYSICIST, please, his first publication has a lot to do with experimental physicist such as Max Planck's quamtum observation. I even told you in my last post about Relativity and Quantum theories. Did you read?
Do I need to say anything more?
When I used the name Gavin Menzies' i only to show china4life that it was a British who is leading the effort, not a Chinese to show his accusation for 'nationalism' is false. Then you immediately picked up and started to talk about Menzies is wrong without even looking into the details of what he said.
I haev said openly before on this thread that I don't have enough time to go through his overwhelming list of evidences yet. And I am following my own searching. I have repeatedly said 'keep an open mind'.
Did i anywhere I agree or disagree with Menzies except one sentence about the Map -- he said 'ancientpeople won't lie for today's people's benefit. That's it.
By the way, the content of what you quoted from the link I have already posted on this thread (in Chinese) together with two Gurdian news which hold lots of doubts about the map as well as political speculation.
As I said, you need to read the thread before talking, please.
Author: admchengho Time: 2006-2-12 04:28 PM
tris06:
if they had no source of vitimin c from fresh fruit they would have died within in two years
From the book 1421. Chapter 3 - The Fleets Set Sail:
QUOTE:
Soya beans, grown in tubs all year round, were used in several ways. Soaked in water, they sprouted 'yellow curls' from the green bean. The sprouting process increased the content of ascorbic acid, riboflavin and nicotinic acid, the basis of vi$$in C... The Chinese knew the dangers of scurvy and the remedies to prevent it...
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-2-12 05:38 PM Subject: Reply #115 shanhuang's post
QUOTE:
Did i anywhere I agree or disagree with Menzies except one sentence about the Map -- he said 'ancientpeople won't lie for today's people's benefit. That's it.
That is the gist of the whole argument.
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-12 08:05 PM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 12-2-2006 01:59
Then you immediately picked up and started to talk about Menzies is wrong without even looking into the details of what he said.
Shan, I have had his book for years. Have you read it cover to cover? Any publisher is going to make sure that their website spins their writer's story. When I first got the book I was highly intrigued, but then I started to read the criticism of it and realise that the book was not all it seemed to be. Even when I got a copy of it, a friend of mine who has a speciality in Chinese-Asian history said he thought the book was telling a bit of a porkie.
We can all keep an open mind, but sometimes one has seen such overwhelming case of evidence to discredit the evidence that we require further evidence. I'm happy to believe that the explorers went a great distance, but the rest of what Menzies said was not supported by enough decent evidence. And I do not think that you really gave that point of view enough of a look-in in your posts. On the other hand you were pushing the 1421 website repeatedly.
QUOTE:
By the way, the content of what you quoted from the link I have already posted on this thread
You did not have anything on what Commander Pereira had to say, nor did you have specific, direct criticism of Menzies' research as made by the historians I linked to. So it was worthwhile posting it.
QUOTE:
Did i anywhere I agree or disagree with Menzies except one sentence about the Map -- he said 'ancient people won't lie for today's people's benefit. That's it.
What happens when someone misrepresents or misunderstands what they have to say? The entire base of Menzies' criticism lies on how he reached his conclusions. And I currently agree with that point - he spins a nice yarn but it can't be relied upon.
[ Last edited by mencius at 2006-2-12 12:12 PM ]
Author: tris06 Time: 2006-2-12 10:36 PM Subject: admchengho
Soya beans, grown in tubs all year round, were used in several ways. Soaked in water, they sprouted 'yellow curls' from the green bean. The sprouting process increased the content of ascorbic acid, riboflavin and nicotinic acid, the basis of vi$$in C... The Chinese knew the dangers of scurvy and the remedies to prevent it..."
Well thats a really ^^ ^^ed up way to supply 30,000 people with vitinimin c sorry but that is somthing I can't see them doing.You have many problems with this water comsumption to produce the vi$$in C. They would have to dedicated many ships to just provide enough vititimin c. Look I am just saying that the possiblitlity of chinese going to the america's were just too unrealisitc. And funny how only a mere 100-200 vikings land that landed in north america in 1000AD-1200 and we find evidence that is100% fool proof for their exsistence in the americas. Yet we cannot find one peice of solid evidence in the americas of the 30,000 chinese sailors which menzies said stayed in the america's for more than a year Plus no chinese ships have been found on the sea floor all the way from africa to the america's. The chinese ships were sturdy but they were hard to navigate around dangers.
Look at what your own experts say. They don't believe it. I think you have to reconise that apart from some map which could be a fraud and this guy menzie who is no where enough to become qualified in history.
Author: admchengho Time: 2006-2-13 08:25 AM
thats a really ^^ ^^ed up way to supply 30,000 people with vitinimin c
That's your problem if you find it tedious. Not my problem. I challenged you on the vitamin c and you gave me nothing elaborate.
I have achieved what I wanted to achieve: to show that you are one who comment WITHOUT thinking and comment without reading.
You have many problems with this water comsumption to produce the vi$$in C
Once again, this part shows that you did not read the book at all. However, would love to give comment. Prrffttt... LOL
You're not worth an ounce of attention.
Author: tris06 Time: 2006-2-13 08:39 AM
You're not worth an ounce of attention."
i wonder what others think about that. And no I didn't read the book, However I did watch the tv program about it.
I was just stating the problems with what you were suggesting. sorry but I don't believe it was possible. May to east africa sure. cause the evidence backs it up. But to speculate about going all the way to america. And the fact that very few proffesionals think that it was possible would suggest that they would agree with me and would think of your arguements.
And they would say to you, You're not worth an ounce of attention.....
so suck on it.
Again I wonder how many people agree with you?
[ Last edited by tris06 at 2006-2-13 08:41 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-14 12:51 PM Subject: Reply #118 mencius's post
I will take care of you, meencius, you don't have my priority now.
But I will come back, Be patient.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-14 12:55 PM Subject: Reply #119 tris06's post
tris06, at least you are asking a technical question, that's better than just speculations like meencius.
Ask if Columbus' small boat can survive, why not Zheng He's?
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-14 12:58 PM ]
Image Attachment:
zhenghe_ship.jpg (2006-2-14 12:58 PM, 20.52 K) / Download count 73
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=11434
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-2-14 01:14 PM Subject: Reply #120 admchengho's post
Chinese provides V i t a m in C thru chinese tea which can be kept for years.
Europeans lost out with fruits which last only few months.
Also chinese orange peels can be keep long whne dried and provides Vit. C.
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-14 05:46 PM Subject: Size of the Chinese Fleet
Not only the Chinese ships were hugh as compared to the European, but also the size of the Chinese Fleet was immense .
"In its heyday, about + 1420, the Ming navy probably outclassed that of any other Asian nation at any time in history, and would have been more than a match for that of any contemporary European State or even a combination of them. Under the Yung-Lo Emperor [Zhu Di] it consisted of some 3,800 ships in all, 1,350 patrol vessels and 1,350 combat ships attached to guard stations (wei and so) or island bases (chai), A main fleet of 400 large warships stationed at Hsin-chiang-khou near Nanking and 400 grain-transport freighters. In addition there were more than 250 long-distance ‘Treasure ships’ or galleons (Pao chuan), the average complement of which from 450 men in +1403 to over 690 in 1431 and certainly overstepped 1,000 in the largest vessels. A further 3,000 merchantmen were always ready as auxiliaries, and a host of small craft did duty as despatch-boats and police launches. But the peak of the development which had started in 1130 came in 1433, and after the great reversal of policy the navy declined much more rapidly than it had grown, so that by the middle of the +16th century almost nothing was left of its former grandeur.” – Needham, Vol 3, p. 484 (Martin Tai evidence).
What were all those ships doing over the centuries? They were not sitting in the harbors. They were exploring the world.- mapping as they went.
Throughout Chinese history there are accounts of maps and the importance of map-making. It is not logical that the same people who meticulously mapped at home did not also make maps of their travels At the same time there are many hints in European maps of the 15th and 16th century of Chinese influence. Not only are Chinese junks shown on several maps but European maps show parts of the Americas, including the west coasts, before their explorers had even been there. They had to get that information from someone who had been there.
If Columbus small ships could survive and make to America, could'nt thousands of Chinese ships which were 6 times larger, far more better equipped and prepared for long distance voyages to make it to America?
[ Last edited by correction at 2006-2-14 06:17 PM ]
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-2-14 05:53 PM Subject: Reply #125 correction's post
Could agree with you as read it before.
How many could accept Great before, and soon will be Great again.
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-14 06:14 PM Subject: I might have missed out reading it
Hello Caringhk, has someone already posted it in his thread? Anyway, no harm to read it again, and maybe my materials is not presented in the exact manner but with views from different angles.
Author: tris06 Time: 2006-2-14 07:52 PM
You always talk about size, who cares if about the size of the ship. firstly the ship would travel at a very slow speed. I mean the european ship could easily be 4-5 times faster than any junk. plus thethickness of the ships hulls are so immense. As you have to realise ships with longer and wider hulls have much more pressure applied to sides. Its just a matter to practical sense. The chinese junks were not designed to travel around the tip of africa for example. European ships could do it because of the relative small size, and even then they lsot ships. And as you said such a large fleet. It would lose many ships on such a long trip and yet nothing has ever been found and you say they are so big well then they would be much easier to find than the thousands of ship wrecks found in and around the america's.
As I said size means nothing. For example spanish ships were larger and had more guns on board yet the english ships could easly defeat them, now of course you say that this is totally different. But I argue what you just assumed that larger was better. Plus it dosen't matter how much you like to think how big and how much storage you can put in such ships, the fact that the junk ship was not designed for long trips in heavy seas . Plus the junks needed 10-20 times more people to run it than a european ship. This is all good saying how that yes they could do it, but evidence does not back it up. The amount of resources for such a long trip would sure have problems yet everything in the book of 1421 seemed to go perfect yet we know that this was all unexplored land plus the fact that the fleet could stay together on such a long trip is stupid things never go to plan, whatever you do. If the fleet ever went to the america's we would have found stray ships ending up everywhere.Again my theory is the fleet made it to east africa but no further they would have never been able to make it around the cape without having losses. Sorry but you can't expect me to believe somthing which goes agains't comon sense. We need to to use this before making wild claims. Again I said you agree with a very small amount of profesionals maybe a mere 2% where the others are not sure or think this is a load of crap.
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-2-15 10:59 AM Subject: Reply #127 correction's post
Not in this thread.
I read it i a book i bought long ago(not recent Menzie book)
as i had interest in civilisation.
If i remember correctly, it was quite the same.
SO no problem, if someone copied from the older text.
As i know, old book like to quote references.
Eg. Mrs Rhys David is mostly mentioned in most Buddhists Books.
I think she has authority in the Buddhists text and helps in translation.
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-15 01:47 PM Subject: Size of the Chinese Fleet doesn't matter?
To be able to carry out the task of surveying and mapping out the whole world areas, size of the fleet does really matter. Let's take a look at the evidences provided by Menzies:
Areas of the World surveyed
The enormity of the task at hand would have required huge fleets for its completion.
Indian Ocean (Cantino and Zheng He's passage charts)
Nine million square miles and thousands of islands. Assuming ships 15 miles apart, they sail at 4.8 knots and survey for 10 hours a day, then 30 ships would have had to be at sea for 18 months.
South America and Antarctic (Piri Reis and Zheng He's passage charts)
Approximately 6 million square miles – about 20 ships required over an 18-month period.
North America and North Atlantic (Cantino)
Approximately 12 million square miles – about 40 ships.
Far East (Rotz)
Not fewer than 20 ships over an 18-month period.
Australasia (Rotz and Zheng He's passage charts)
No fewer than 20 ships over an 18-month period.
Rivers of the World (Waldseemueller)
Thousands of miles of the Orinoco, Amazon, Mississippi; hundreds of miles of rivers in Siberia and Australia and rivers in Pacific America are depicted on European charts before voyages of discovery.
No fewer than 130 ships over 18 months would be required. The only nation who could put such a huge fleet to sea to provide the original information later shown by cartographers of the Piri Reis, Cantino, Jean Rotz, Waldseemueller, Pizzigano and Zheng He's passage charts (all showing lands drawn before Europeans “discovered” them) was China.
Besides, don't you think that bigger ships can stock up more food and water supply for the fleet to stay out longer at sea?
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-2-16 11:36 AM Subject: GREAT AUSTRONESIAN - AFRICOID-MELANESIAN SEAFARERS OF ANCIENT SOUTH CHINA
Who are the people who had a huge culture between the East coast of Africa to Melanesia along Southern Asia all the way to the Philipines.
If we connect the Chinese to a northern type Mongoloid with 'pinkish' complexion, then THERE IS NO WAY THAT PHENOTYPE WOULD DEVELOP IN THE HOT SOUTH.
Hence, as I have said before, while Cheng Ho was a great seaman and made important journies. THE PEOPLE WHO MOST LIKELY LEFT CHINA AND REACHED THE AMERICAS IN ANCIENT TIMES WERE A COMBINATION OF NEGROIDS OCCUPYING SOUTHERN CHINA AND THE MIXED 'YELLOWISH-BROWN' MONGOLOIDS SIMILAR IN APPEARANCE TO SOUTHERN CHINES, PHILIPINOS AND POLYNESIANS.
Now take a look at these references and let me know
http://members.tripod.com/pointingbird/lostfeather.intl/id59.htm
http://www.members.tripod.com/po ... ather.intl/id59.htm
The data, the names, the pictures, the information given here is accurate. Moreover, back about 2000, the magazine "Scientific American' had an article about the fact that Southern China's people in ancient times and not long ago were basically a Negro-Polynesian and Austronesian people related to Oceanic and African Negroes. These are the people from whom the Hawaiians, Melanesians, Papuans, Agta, Semang and other Negroids are related to both in appearance and genetically as well as in customs.
These are the people who used the outrigger and other types of boats (that were invented in East Africa and the prehistoric Sahara - AND LASHED WITH ROPE), to sail the Pacific Ocean, Indian Ocean and the Atlantic.
A LITTLE RESEARCH GOES A LONG WAY
http://www.soundchristian.com/man/
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html
TAKE A LOOK AT THIS REFERENCES:
http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/6.htm
http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/3.htm
http://community.webtv.net/paulnubiaempire
see "HISTORY OF THE AFRICAN-OLMECS'
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-2-16 11:44 AM Subject: GREAT AUSTRONESIAN - AFRICOID-MELANESIAN SEAFARERS OF ANCIENT SOUTH CHINA
Who are the people who had a huge culture between the East coast of Africa to Melanesia along Southern Asia all the way to the Philipines.
If we connect the Chinese to a northern type Mongoloid with 'pinkish' complexion, then THERE IS NO WAY THAT PHENOTYPE WOULD DEVELOP IN THE HOT SOUTH.
Hence, as I have said before, while Cheng Ho was a great seaman and made important journies. THE PEOPLE WHO MOST LIKELY LEFT CHINA AND REACHED THE AMERICAS IN ANCIENT TIMES WERE A COMBINATION OF NEGROIDS OCCUPYING SOUTHERN CHINA AND THE MIXED 'YELLOWISH-BROWN' MONGOLOIDS SIMILAR IN APPEARANCE TO SOUTHERN CHINES, PHILIPINOS AND POLYNESIANS.
Now take a look at these references and let me know
http://members.tripod.com/pointingbird/lostfeatherintl/id59.htm
http://www.members.tripod.com/po ... eatherintl/id59.htm
The data, the names, the pictures, the information given here is accurate. Moreover, back about 2000, the magazine "Scientific American' had an article about the fact that Southern China's people in ancient times and not long ago were basically a Negro-Polynesian and Austronesian people related to Oceanic and African Negroes. These are the people from whom the Hawaiians, Melanesians, Papuans, Agta, Semang and other Negroids are related to both in appearance and genetically as well as in customs.
These are the people who used the outrigger and other types of boats (that were invented in East Africa and the prehistoric Sahara - AND LASHED WITH ROPE), to sail the Pacific Ocean, Indian Ocean and the Atlantic.
A LITTLE RESEARCH GOES A LONG WAY
http://www.soundchristian.com/man/
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html
TAKE A LOOK AT THIS REFERENCES:
http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/6.htm
http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/3.htm
http://community.webtv.net/paulnubiaempire
see "HISTORY OF THE AFRICAN-OLMECS'
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-16 12:57 PM Subject: Reply #130 correction's post
Good and interesting answer, correction! I will join in later.
Author: admchengho Time: 2006-2-16 02:20 PM
caringhk:
Chinese provides V i t a m in C thru chinese tea which can be kept for years. Europeans lost out with fruits which last only few months. Also chinese orange peels can be keep long whne dried and provides Vit. C
That's additional info for our tris. The sea water desalination technique of the Ming Dynasty is also explained in the book by our friend here is unaware of it but would rather dispense wisdoms.
correction:
size of the fleet does really matter
He obviously thinks that he can sail the world with a fishing boat...
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-16 03:49 PM Subject: Sailing into uncharted world!
"He obviously thinks that he can sail the world with a fishing boat... " quote..
Reply : I guess it requires great faith to believe in that, especially sailing into great unknown territories, without a chart to show you the way, you might end up somewhere but not knowing the way back home!
Wouldn't that explain why many islands in the world are inhabited by natives?
Author: tris06 Time: 2006-2-16 04:08 PM
Again I'm not into making huge comments and yes we know the chinese were smart and what not. Still the fact is there's not enough evidence,.dosen't matter what maps you have, we have to find somthing in the americas to prove it. Like the vikings left in north america. Thats all that really matters in this conversation. to really prove the chinese ever went to the americas you needed to find somthing in the americas. If you don't this theory will die.or not matter.
[ Last edited by tris06 at 2006-2-16 04:12 PM ]
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-2-16 07:30 PM Subject: Reply #132 jayzee's post
A LITTLE RESEARCH GOES A LONG WAY
QUOTE:
The last two are more interesting sites than the first two.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-2-16 07:34 PM
QUOTE:
Hence, as I have said before, while Cheng Ho was a great seaman and made important journies. THE PEOPLE WHO MOST LIKELY LEFT CHINA AND REACHED THE AMERICAS IN ANCIENT TIMES WERE A COMBINATION OF NEGROIDS OCCUPYING SOUTHERN CHINA AND THE MIXED 'YELLOWISH-BROWN' MONGOLOIDS SIMILAR IN APPEARANCE TO SOUTHERN CHINES, PHILIPINOS AND POLYNESIANS.
Possible.
The Sanxindui bronze masks in Sizhuan showed facial features of negroids.
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-17 12:33 PM Subject: Vikings left something in America?
Again here, I would marvel at people who so readily believe in that small fishing boats could really travel great distances and explore uncharted lands and bring home knowledge of their discoveries. Yet these people would quickly dismiss the possibility of the hugh Chinese fleet making the same discoveries. Do they raise the same kind of questions with regards to these small fishing boats as they did against the idea of Chinese fleet discovering America? Questions like how did survive so long out at sea, whether they stock up sufficient foods and water and the problem of vitamin C deficiency ? Futhermore do have any existing documents or charts produced by the Vikings to support their claims? Not only charts of North America but also of their homelands? What about the designs of their small boats, could these small boats sail safely into the vast ocean of Atlantic to reach the shore of North America? Even assuming that some boats might have drifted across the vast sea onto the shores of America, wouldn't they have suffer a lot from hunger and thirst? And how would they have defended themselves against the hostile natives? Some natives were cannibals, perhaps they might have been their meals too! My guess is that the Vikings would have only left behind their bones if they ever made it to America. Why? Because drifting to the shores of America does not mean that you could return back to your homeland especially without a chart showing the way and navigation tools like the compass.
How about the Chinese fleet? Even if some doubted their ability to cross the vast Atlantic ocean, the Chinese still could have discovered America by just crossing the BERINGS STRAITS! Isn't the geographical location of North America closer to Asia than Europe?
[ Last edited by correction at 2006-2-17 01:41 PM ]
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-17 06:58 PM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by correction at 17-2-2006 04:33
Even if some doubted their ability to cross the vast Atlantic ocean, the Chinese still could have discovered America by just crossing the BERINGS STRAITS!
That doesn't mean that they did. Even Menzies says they crossed over further south. Plus I think the weather there is not terribly hospitable.
Author: tris06 Time: 2006-2-17 09:04 PM
hmm obviously you know nothing about the vikings so I won't reply to such stupid commments. The biggest difference between a viking ship and the chinese ships were, speed, size and flexability.. The vikings made many stops on the way from their homelands, they coud have stopped off at icland or the greenland settlements. Yes couple of hundred of vikings that settled in America were killed off or went back to greenland. Again read european history before being too cocky about chinese history, might put you in your place to know that the vikings were able to sail in such a small ship to the americas.
[ Last edited by tris06 at 2006-2-17 09:34 PM ]
Author: jayzee Time: 2006-2-18 11:45 AM Subject: POLYNESIANS, MELANESIANS, AFRICANS, SOUTH CHINESE
I remember speaking to a Fijian at the Los Angeles African Marketplace and Cultural Faire (near University of California - Mid August, every year) and he told me that Fijians and other Melanesians were making trips back and forth between East Africa and Melanesia as early as 2000 BC.
There is also evidence that a group of African Negroids, Melanesian Negroids and Aboriginal type people also sailed to Brazil as early as 30,000 BC ( see 'Luiza' National Geographic ).
The Melanesians, East Africans, Hawaiians/Polynesians and Sahara Africans like the Bambara, Ono, Dogon (THE SAHARA IS NOW DRY, BUT 20,000 - 10,000 YEARS AGO, THERE WAS A GIANT 'INLAND SEA' (Satellite photographs of the Sahara will show a great push of a dry lakebed carved by water from Morocco to Egypt).
As for the Chinese, THE CHINESE (OR MONGOLOID PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT FROM THE CHIN OR HAN STOCK) may have visited the Americas in ships, but that first journey took place about 1000 years before Christ!!! The evidence is there.
The FACT THAT HAS TO BE RECOGNIZED IS THAT THAT PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE FROM CHINA WERE NEGROID AND MONGOLOID. They were related to the Shang and Xia.
In fact, the Polynesians who look like a mixture of Negro and Mongoloid are the LIVING DESCENDENTS OF THESE ANCIENT BLACK AND MONGOLOLID CHINESE WHO LIVED IN SOUTHERN CHINA.
About 1000 BC they did not need large ships to sail. The used the type of 'outriggers' and raft-like ships to sail from the SouthEast coast of China, Melanesia and Polynesia towards the Calilfornia and Peru (South America) region.
On the Atlantic and the Indian Ocean both, African historians point out that low longboats lashed together with strong sails were adequate for a journey to the Americas and to Melanesia, Indonesia and Australia, all the way to the Americas. (See "African Presence in Early Asia," by Runoko Rashidi and Ivan Van Sertima, pub. by Transaction Publishers, New Bruinswick, New Jersey USA: Also see, "A History of the African-Olmecs: Black Civilizatioins of America from Prehistoric Times to the Present Era," pub. by http://www.Authorhouse.com - THIS BOOK HAS MUCH EVIDENCE AND REFERENCES IN REGARDS TO THE ANCIENT SHANG, SHIA AND OCEANIC NEGROID PEOPLE OF SOUTHERN CHINA WHO SAILED TO THE AMERICAS ABOUT 1000 BC - and see the maps, types of ships, lots and so on.
WHAT IS REALLY PUZZLING
What puzzles me is this. It appears that sometime between 30,000 BC to 1000 BC a group of people who spoke the same language family (Manding-Shi or Manding-Ka) were spread from the 'wet' Sahara to Hawaii.
One can see the long and unbroken line of the same type of people in the torrid and tropical belt around the world. The languages today are similar, the people look similar racially, the customs are similar, the genetic mapping is similar, the types of boats used is similar (outriggers, boats made with papyrus or planks sewn together).
That group of people still exist today.
Most people are aware that there are few native Blacks/Negroids on China today, but it does not mean they simply disappeared or all sailed out and colonized the Melanesian islands and elsewhere in the Pacific.
I know geneticists and scientists who say that Southern Chinese, Austronesians, Philipinos, SE Asians still have strong Negroid characteristics. Added to that, there are still Negro/Black populations today in some isolated parts of SE Asia.
So, the SOUTHERN CHINESE OF 3000 YEARS AGO MAY HAVE RESEMBLED SAMOANS, HAWAIIANS, AFRICANS AND MONGOLOID CHINESE.
In fact, many scientists believe that to be the case after some studies were done years ago (Scientific American).
Over the many centuries, successive Chinese kings and rulers have had the ancient 'Canaanite Policy" which is, LEARN FROM OTHERS, BLEND THE PEOPLE TO ACHIEVE UNITY.
I say 'Canaanite Policy' because (THIS MAY SHOCK SOME), THE CHINESE 'RACE' CAME FROM THE BLACK SON OF HAM CALLED 'CANAAN' OR 'CHANHAN'
Canaan had a son called Heth and another called Sin. Heth was a 'Yellow' Negro (like this writer), MEANING HE WAS PURE NEGRO BUT HAD THE NEGRO GENE THAT GIVES THE 'YELLOWISH BROWN' COMPLECTION.
Heth also had high cheekbones and the type of 'slant' 'almond' eyes found in a very large number of Negroes/Blacks in Africa. That feature is natural due to the very harsh temperatures and climates in parts of Africa (Sahara where the sun rises to 125 degrees f at midday...then falls to -10 at midnight --- all within 24 hours in the same day )
Added to that, you also have many parts of Africa where the environment is very harsh and identical to the climate in Central China and in Siberia. The South African Veldt is one area and there the Kong-San, !Kung, Nama, Zulu, Swazi are Negroes with a variety of facial types but particularly brown to light-brown complextions, and 'Mongoloid' faces with very kinky hair and all are rather tall, EXCEPT THE KONG, !KUNG AND NAMA ETHNIC GROUPS, WHO ARE SHORTER.
I had some pictures of Kung people here http://community.webtv.net/paulnubiaempire
So, most peope who follow certain religions (perhaps 3 BILLION PEOPLE, believe that the Chinese and other Mongoloid Asians, along with the American Indians, Berbers and other North Africans, Varioius groups of West Africans (some are of Canaanite origins, others are of Cushite and Mizramite origins), Polynesians, Melanesians, East Indians, Australian Aboriginals, Japanese, Koreans ---- ALL ARE DESCENDENTS OF CANAAN.
The Chinese and other Mongoloids came from Heth and Sin. Both Heth and Sin were sons of Canaan. Canaan was a Negro, he was the son of Ham along with Cush, Phut, Mizraim.
I know today you look at most Chinese (particularly from the Central to Northern China, Western China, other parts) and that connection cannot be seen. However, it can be seen in the Polynesians, SE Asians, Sothern Chinese, Austronesians and others.
(PLEASE, GET THE MAGAZINE 'SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN' it was probably published in 1999 or 2000 - the cover is black with the faces of lots of Chinese Children. The findings clearly show that people like hte Philipinos, Melanesians, Polynesians, Montagnard (of Vietnam) and a number of Negroid and mixed Negro-Mongoloid people were inhabitants of Southern China in ancient times.
ONE WAY THAT TRACES OF THEM CAN BE FOUND TODAY IN SOUTHERN CHINA OR VIETNAM/SE ASIA IS TO DO GENETIC TESTS ON PEOPLE LIKE THE MOI AND SUCH 'NATIONALITIES'
Then again, many Mongoloid people do have faces that look like Africans in certain parts of Africa. The only difference is the hair type and the very LIGHT SKIN OF SOME ASIANS.
So, we have to start looking at Chinese and East Asian history a bit differently and we will find that YES, THERE WERE CHINESE JOURNIES TO THE AMERICAS IN ANCIENT TIMES -- THEY WERE SOUTHERN MONGOLOIDS, NEGROIDS AND POLYNESIAN PEOPLES WHO LIVED IN SOUTHERN CHINA, WHO FIRST BEGAN THESE JOURNIES ABOUT 3000 YEARS AGO.
Are you aware that in SE Asia before the great upheaval in Mongolia that led to the pushing of Mongols into SE Asia (During the 1100's to 1300's AD due to the Mongol invasions) THERE WERE BLACK NEGRITO KINGDOMS FROM THAILAND ALL THE WAY TO VIETNAM. They were Chenla, Funan, Angkhor ( see http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html )
http://www.andaman.org/index.htm
STUDY/RESEARCH IN MODERN AFRICAN/ASIAN HISTORY SINCE THE MID 1800'S (When the religious mythology on human civilization/origins was being replaced with scientific proof)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8919/ling.htm
http://geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8919/olmeckings.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8919/olmeckings.htm
NEGROID INDIANS OF AMERICA
http://www.lostfeather.com
AUSTRONESIANS
http://members.tripod.com/pointingbird/lostfeatherint/id59.htm
http://www.mu-atlantis.com/jmp1/3.htm
http://www.stewartsynopsis.com
http://www.suzar.com
http://community.webtv.net/paulnubiaempire
http://www.raceandhistory.com
nubianem@webtv.net
Author: greendragon Time: 2006-2-18 12:17 PM Subject: Reply #142 jayzee's post
The chanting Hebrews are working hard again!!!!
ha ha ha ha ha
yes more storytelling about "chosen race" right!!!!
ha ha ha ha ha ha
eat shit Mr. Jayzee
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-18 03:14 PM Subject: "weather there is not terribly hospitable. "
"That doesn't mean that they did. Even Menzies says they crossed over further south. Plus I think the weather there is not terribly hospitable. "....quote
Reply : If the weather there is not terribly hospitable, is it only to the Chinese and not to the European? I guess you people must be thinking of divine protection and blessings! Can you people absolutely prove that the Chinese didn't cross the Berings Straits before you could say they didn't, isn't racial prejudice involved here?
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-18 03:23 PM Subject: Show us your proofs!
"hmm obviously you know nothing about the vikings so I won't reply to such stupid commments. The biggest difference between a viking ship and the chinese ships were, speed, size and flexability.. The vikings made many stops on the way from their homelands, they coud have stopped off at icland or the greenland settlements. Yes couple of hundred of vikings that settled in America were killed off or went back to greenland. Again read european history before being too cocky about chinese history, might put you in your place to know that the vikings were able to sail in such a small ship to the americas."
Reply : You only need to show us hard evidences like documents and maps of the Vikings! Why should we believe in what you said here?
Author: tris06 Time: 2006-2-18 04:18 PM
Reply : You only need to show us hard evidences like documents and maps of the Vikings! Why should we believe in what you said here?" I don't think you get it just cause the chinese were good map makers and ect dosen't mean the rest of world makes maps.Plenty of proof exists.
http://www.infohub.com/Articles/20000327.html
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/north/h16-4223-e.html
now shut your gob.
[ Last edited by tris06 at 2006-2-18 05:57 PM ]
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-18 07:19 PM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by correction at 18-2-2006 07:23
You only need to show us hard evidences like documents and maps of the Vikings! Why should we believe in what you said here?
It is widely accepted that the Vikings got there. In history you can never be completely sure of anything, there is always an element of uncertainty. But definitely the Viking case is a lot stronger than the Menzies one.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-19 07:08 AM Subject: Reply #146 tris06's post
tris06, your 2nd link doesn't work. And from the first link, I don't see detailed evidences.
I certainly know there are a lot talks about Vikings discovered America long before Columbus, but as I said before to meecius that I am interested in data and evidences. Did Vikings map the world?
I started this thread mainly focused on this coopy of 1418 map and to learn about how the world was first mapped.
meencius, what you did again is SPECULATION, no matter how 'wide' it is, nothing more.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-19 09:23 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-19 08:34 AM Subject: Reply to mencius's series of posts
QUOTE:
Liangzai pointed out that the map was rather suspicious, especially as it shows California as an island and seems to show the American rivers quite clearly.
I read through your posts on this thread, all I could find about the details of the map is above amid tons of speculations. As I pointed out your problem before -- you don't read carefully and try to understand before posting.
I have debated with liangzai quite extensively several times, I have pinned down many of his unfounded statements. But here let me show you again.
If you have the basic scientific training and have read the article of The Economist I posted on the first page carefully, you or Liangzai would not make such statement at all.
The beauty of the error -- California being drawn as an island, is that it serves as a very good handle to probe the issue -- who first drew the world map. Yes, a singular error is often used by scientists as ae effective handle to analyze problems. Why? Let me show you,
1) In this map case, if you can find ONE European map dated before 1418 that had California being drawn as an island, then you can overthrow the whole theory that Chinese first completed the world survey and made the first world map. It wil say, Chinese copied the Europeans.
2) We know Chinese made mistakes on this ancient map by drawing California as an Isalnd. The question is why many European maps made later showed the same error? If geologically California has never been an island, then the answer is that it's quite possible that Europeans copied Chinese map.
I hope you now understand why I was searching for old European maps earlier on this thread.
Frankly speaking, I can't believe that I have to teach you such basics. I just want to let you know again, it's a waste of a lot of time of yous and others' if you just keep dumping posts without an intention to have a fair mind.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-19 08:47 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-19 08:45 AM Subject: A Tai map dated from 1782-1851
In 1996, two royal officials named Sarinee Manakit and Nopphawan Leetachewa stumbled across a rare treasure at the Grand Palace. In an antique, glass-fronted cupboard, they found five bolts of musty cotton cloth. After unrolling the swathes, they marveled at the 17 hand-drawn and hand-colored maps, which were clearly very old. The discovery of these maps would later shake up the Thai cartographic world.
“These maps represent primary sources of information for the study of Siamese and Southeast Asian history and geography for years to come,” says Santanee Phasuk, a Thai Studies and Human Geography instructor at Silapakorn University and Rajchaphat Suansunantha, and one of the exhibition’s co-curators.
Historians are now saying that these maps date back to the period of King Rama I to King Rama III (1782-1851). Five of these will now be on display at the Jim Thompson Art Center in an exhibition entitled “Siam in Trade and War – Royal Maps of the Nineteenth Century” from January 28 to March 31. Covering Siam, Burma, Cambodia and China, they are rich in detail and beauty, showing terrain studded with hilltop temples, trees and forts. They show lakes and rivers teeming with fish and Chinese junks.
.....
But the maps also highlight a trade network that, crucially, went far beyond Southeast Asia (shown in the museum’s second room). During the Ayutthaya period, which lasted from the 15th to the 18th century, the Siamese capital was a magnet for commerce, attracting Europeans and Asians from around the region.
But the Chinese were especially active in Ayutthaya, controlling the bulk of the trade and sending tribute missions to the country. Some maps show some 300 Chinese junks sailing down the Chao Phraya River, with the Siamese going in the opposite direction. One map details several silk factories in Guangdong, evidence that the Siamese were just as interested in the Middle Kingdom’s wealth as they were in Thailand’s riches. Rama III had a monopoly over trade at that period and boosted his country’s coffers.
http://www.manager.co.th/IHT/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000009560
Please note the map style is much more similar to the ancient Chinese map than european maps, and it clearly showed huge Chinese junks.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-20 06:23 AM ]
Image Attachment:
Tai map.jpg (2006-2-20 06:23 AM, 48.2 K) / Download count 58
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=12364
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-19 09:25 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 18-2-2006 23:08
what you did again is SPECULATION, no matter how 'wide' it is, nothing more.
No, it's called evidence. Go buy some books on the Viking voyages. There is more than one book I can promise you.
By the way, I know you have only a cursory knowledge of Chinese history, but I have tried to tell you several times that the philosopher's name was "mencius". There is no such person as "meencius". Please just trust me on this - you're only insulting his memory by not spelling it properly.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-19 09:34 AM Subject: Reply #151 mencius's post
QUOTE:
No, it's called evidence..
Then please show and post the evidences, don't just sit there yelling "evidences", I am interested in learning.
You have been sitting here yelling Einstein is a mathematian when everyone knows that he is a physicist. And then you still LOL at me. You have no idea how ridiculous you are.
Let me say it again, if you want to waste your time, please find another place or thread. I don't give you priority to answer your post any more. I have more important things to read or post.
By the way, I have said before and let me say it again, the reason I called you meencius is because it's a shame for someone like you to take our ancient philosopher Mencius' name as handle.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-20 05:05 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-19 09:38 AM Subject: Civilisation: The slaves & masters game
Saturday February 11 2006 17:56 IST
T J S George
Obsessed with politics, we don't notice what is happening to civilisation. More is happening to it than the Islamic upheaval against European blasphemy. That is essentially political.
The civilisational world is all about the advancement of knowledge and discoveries. As it happens, in this world too, Western civilisation is currently feeling a bit rattled. They have spent centuries establishing that all knowledge, all break-throughs, all progress began in the Caucasian West. Now they are being forced to admit that yet another of their conclusions is unsustainable. Columbus did not "discover" America. Zheng He did.
Admiral Zheng's Chinese fleets sailed the world between 1405 and 1435, more than half a century before Columbus saw the "New World" (1492) or Bartolomeu Dias the Cape of Good Hope (1488). Zheng's accounts appeared in a book in 1418. Now a navigator's map of the world made around 1418 and copied in 1763 has been found and tested as authentic. It shows Africa, Europe, the Americas and of course Asia fairly accurately. Australia is there too, but placed off course. Experts believe this could well be the first ever map of the world. Clearly Chinese explorers were circumnavigating the globe long before Ferdinand Magellan (the "discoverer" of the Philippines) thought of it in 1519. The Chinese map recognised the world as spherical _ 50 years before Copernicus was born to propound the theory that the earth was a sphere revolving round an axis; almost 200 years later the Roman Catholic Church would still be busy condemning Galileo for the "heresy" of supporting Copernicus.
Which shows that the West was pretty late in catching up with the East. Centuries late. That did not stop them from claiming overall fatherhood. As late as the 17th Century, they taught that human civilisation had its roots in the Caucuses and flowered in Greece. This was the defining "Aryan model" buttressed by the argument that Indo-European languages were the bedrock of modern civilsation. Greece thus became the fount of all the philosophies, all the sciences known to us today.
The arguments have been blown to bits by eminent scholars, but these scholars remain on the periphery. Martin Bernal (author of the famous "Black Athena" which exposed "The Fabrication of Ancient Greece") was sidelined by the West. George Gheverghese Joseph has not been rubbished perhaps because his "The Crest of The Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics" is sharply focussed and impossible to refute.
Joseph's seminal work shows that the earliest numerical patterns were developed in the Swaziland region around 35,000 BC, that the most practical system of number notation was devised by the Mayans of Central America around 400 BC. In the four great river valley civilisations of the ancient world _ Egypt, Mesopotamia, India and China _ mathematics was a fully developed science.
But there was one huge difference between the West and the East. They recorded and chronicled everything, we didn't. So, researchable knowledge fills their ledger. Bits and pieces fill ours. Their universities propagate their knowledge. Our Taxilas and Nalandas are mere memories.
There's one more difference. The East was never inclined to exploit what they found. China's globe-girdling explorers made no political or commercial conquest. India's roaming kings and teachers deeply influenced nearly half the world, from Central Asia to China and Indonesia. Art, culture, language and philosophical thought spread, but no empire. Result: With all our civilisational heritage, we became enslaved. With their "fabricated" civilisation, the West became masters.
Who, then, has been the smarter player?
News source: http://www.newindpress.com/sunda ... Columns&rLink=0
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-19 09:40 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 19-2-2006 00:34
Frankly speaking, I can't believe that I have to teach you such basics. I just want to let you know again, it's a waste of a lot of time of yous and others' if you just keep dumping posts without an intention to have a fair mind.
Shan, both of your points revolved around the assumption that the Chinese maps were the originals and not copied. That's no better than saying they were copied from European maps. If anyone needs to learn the basics it's you. You can't just repeat someone's argument by reversing the matter under discussion. That's what children do in the playground.
I have posted so many links to different articles on this map. And each time you don't address their content (do you even bother to read them?). I have a fair mind, which is why I am still talking about this with you. But you seem to ignore all suggestions that the map is not a real copy, even when there are academics queuing up to discredit it. And you've posted the views of how many "experts" that support it? Two?
That is interesting news if the map has been dated to the 18th century, though sadly I haven't found any mainstream articles yet - which is strange given it's from a week ago. I hope to find something soon. But even if that is correct, it doesn't give any more support to the idea it was copied from a 15th century Chinese map.
[ Last edited by mencius at 2006-2-19 01:58 AM ]
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-19 09:45 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 19-2-2006 01:34
Then please show and post the evidences, don't just sit there yelling "evidences", I am interested in learning.
http://www.mnc.net/norway/LeifErikson.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/erikson_leif.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Ericson
The first one has a bibliography. Just search for "Leif Erikson" on the internet, on amazon, etc. Not everything is posted on the internet, you know. Sometimes you have to do real research in libraries and bookshops.
QUOTE:
You have been sitting here yelling Einstein is a mathematian
Oh stop whinging. I said it once then realised my mistake when you corrected me. But, hey, we're not talking about Physics are we? We're talking about history so don't go off on a tangent.
QUOTE:
By the way, I have said before and let me say it again, that I have great respect to our ancient philosopher Mencius, it's a shame for someone like you to take his name as a handle. That's why I call you meencius.
Good Lord, you're a real child aren't you. I haven't met anyone that played games with my name since I was at school. I guess that means you never graduated..........
[ Last edited by mencius at 2006-2-19 01:55 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-19 09:56 AM Subject: Reply #154 mencius's post
QUOTE:
Shan, both of your points revolved around the assumption that the Chinese maps were the originals and not copied...
That's false claim again, meencius. I have said again and again on this thread. The first step is to prove this ancient map is authentic. The 2nd step is to reason if it's a copy of the original.
According to the news above in post #153, the map has been tested and is authentic. Now the focus is on the 2nd step.
Don't forget, some of the 'famous' scholars had even said the map was a fake, made in less than 20 years ago. I can say their 'scholoarly' opinion is unfounded now.
As for the 2nd step, it does take a lot circumstancial evidences to reason and support before we can find definitive proof. That's why we all need to sit down and take good looks of real evidences rather than your kind of SPECULATIONS.
I think Menzies' words are very reasonable: Ancient people won't lie for today's people's benefit.
This map said clearly at its corner that it was a copy of a 1418 map. So, at least we have no evidence to say this ancient map is NOT a copy of a 1418 map.
That's the beauty.
Do you have definitive evidence to prove that this ancient map is NOT a copy of a 1418 map?
Before you can show me such evidences, I will just ignore you for now. Take care.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-20 02:23 PM ]
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-19 10:05 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 19-2-2006 01:56
That's false claim again, meencius.
You said:
"1) In this map case, if you can find ONE European map dated before 1418 that had California being drawn as an island, then you can overthrow the whole theory that Chinese first completed the world survey and made the first world map. It wil say, Chinese copied the Europeans.
2) We know Chinese made mistakes on this ancient map by drawing California as an Isalnd. The question is why many European maps made later showed the same error? If geologically California has never been an island, then the answer is that it's quite possible that Europeans copied Chinese map."
Both those points assume the map is a copy of an early 15th century Chinese map. So therefore my statement was correct.
QUOTE:
This map said clearly at its corner that it was a copy of a 1418 map. So, at least we have no evidence to say this ancient map is NOT a copy of a 1418 map.
Then you decided that the map was real right from the start, didn't you? Because no one could ever prove that the writing was a lie. It is up to supporters of the map to prove that it is a copy of a Chinese map, not to put a pathetic excuse for a piece of evidence (the writing) up and say "no you prove I'm wrong!" If that was valid evidence, everyone would have agreed the map was right from the beginning. That they're still talking about it shows they didn't even bother considering it.
QUOTE:
Do you have definitive evidence to prove that this ancient map is NOT a copy of a 1418 map?
Do you have definitive evidence to prove that it is a copy of such a 15th century map? If you did there wouldn't be any controversy over this. So obviously you don't. It's just speculation, exactly what you accused me of using. As I said, if you want to prove something whether it is a historical assumption, a formula, etc YOU have to prove it. Only schoolkids say things like "YOU PROVE ME WRONG".........
[ Last edited by mencius at 2006-2-19 02:09 AM ]
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-19 08:29 PM Subject: Is it really so?
"It is widely accepted that the Vikings got there. In history you can never be completely sure of anything, there is always an element of uncertainty. But definitely the Viking case is a lot stronger than the Menzies one. " quote..
Is it truly widely accepted that the Vikings got there? And the Viking case a lot stronger than the Menzies one?
Well this is the information I found from the site shown by tris06
"Compared to the histories of contemporary European civilizations, the history of the Nordic peoples is sparse. It is a puzzle that consists of Sagas - a combination of genealogies, histories and legends written during the 1100's through to the 1300's, and archeological findings. The Sagas describe how the Vikings emigrated from Norway to systematically colonize the Shetland, Hebrides, and Faeroe Islands before venturing further north and westwards into Iceland and Greenland. Graelendinga Saga and Eirik's Saga tell of Eirik the Red's colonization of the western region of Greenland and his son's adventures in Vinland." .. quote
Further it says.." Leif's Camp was used for a relatively short period of time in Norse history - perhaps as few as 15 years. It never became a colony." quote..
Notice here it says "the history of the Nordic peoples is sparse. It is a puzzle that consists of Sagas - a combination of genealogies, histories and legends !" If the history is sparse and a puzzle, could we accept this as widely accepted and a stronger case than the Menzies one? If really widely accepted than world history book would have to delete that of Columbus discovery of America and instead credit Vikings as the discoverers! Furthermore it says "Leif's Camp was used for a relatively short period of time in Norse history - perhaps as few as 15 years. It never became a colony." Notice here it never became a colony! So where are the descendants of the Vikings today? Where are their charts of their discovery ? Did they produce charts at all even of their homeland? If they didn't produce any, do you say their case is stronger?
And what we are discussing here is that who actually did survey and map the lands before European were there as shown in many charts.
In contrast, besides the Zhenghe chart, take a look at the some of dna evidences provided by Menzies:
The Genetic Legacy of the Zheng He Fleets
Zhou Wen - Voyage to the Caribbean, N. America and across the Atlantic to Europe - The Genetic Legacy
Place Report Relied Upon
Summary of Report Link in Asia
1 Puerto Rico Mariana Fernandez Cobo and Colleagues “The two type 2A sequences [in the Taino] …were found to be closely related to other type 2A sequences in New Mexico and to the phototype 2A strain from Japan.”
2 Hispanola
3 Cuba Mariana Fernandez Cobo and Colleagues “The Cuban and Colombian urine specimens each showed type 2A strains, …2A is a Northeast Asian genotype apparently contributed by the Taino Indians.
“The number of Type 2A strains far exceeds that expected…”
4 Yucatan Peninsular T Schurr and Colleagues and Noah A. Rosenberg and Colleagues
Maya groups have East Asia Admixture
Gabriel Novick and Colleagues “Close similarities between the Chinese and Native Americans suggests recent gene flow from Asia”
5 Rio Grande/ New Mexico – Pima Indians Alan Liebowitz Hanta Virus
Noah A. Rosenberg and Colleagues
Pima groups have East Asian admixture
6 Florida Moscogee People
Gabriel Novick and Colleagues “Close similarities between the Chinese and Native Americans suggests recent gene flow from Asia”
7 West Virginia
Jerry Warsing Machado Joseph Disease amongst Melungeons and Ming Ho
8
Greenland
Gabriel Novick and Colleagues
“Close similarities between the Chinese and Native Americans suggests recent gene flow from Asia”
9 Inuit Katsushi Tokunaga “A 24-CW8-B48 was commonly observed in Taiwan indigenous populations, Maori in New Zealand, Orochon in Northeast China, Inuit and Tlingit. These findings further support the genetic link between East Asians and Native Americans.”
10 Azores J. Bruges Armas and Colleagues “It is proposed that a Mongoloid population exists in the Azores”
Machado Joseph Disease prevalent
11 Orkneys Noah Rosenberg and Colleagues Orcadian DNA appears to contain a Native American component aswell as an East Asian one.
12 North Scotland
North Norway Professor Bryan Sykes “Seven Daughters of Eve” p 294
“There are many other equally mysterious journeys recorded in our DNA: the Korean sequence that turns up regularly in fishermen from Norway and North Scotland.”
If the Chinese fleets never reach the Americas, how could Chinese and other east Asia Dna found in among natives peoples there? Do you find similar Vikings Dna among the natives?
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-19 09:22 PM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by correction at 19-2-2006 12:29
If the Chinese fleets never reach the Americas, how could Chinese and other east Asia Dna found in among natives peoples there? Do you find similar Vikings Dna among the natives?
Sorry, don't you know the history behind the evolution of humanity and its spread around the world? Ok, it all started in Africa - that's where the first humans are believed to have appeared. They then spread around the world over time.
If you look at the following map, you'll see that scientists believe that some people who settled in the Americas came via Asia, with others via Europe. Humanity didn't evolve around the world in isolated pockets - that's why we're all of the same species at all.
Image Link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Human_mtDNA_migration.png
So that would probably be why some people have found such traces.
As to Viking DNA, there have been tests made and questions raised, but I haven't actually found anything specific on the results. But even if they didn't shack up with the natives doesn't mean that they never actually got there at all.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-20 05:17 AM Subject: Reply #157 mencius's post
QUOTE:
Then you decided that the map was real right from the start, didn't you?
LOL. I have never made such decision and the whole point for me to open this thread is to discuss its possibilities by collecting and studing the data or evidences. So far, what we have here is that the ancient map made in 1763 is authentic and the map said it was a copy of a 1418 map. It's a quite strong argument.
You just proved again that you can't read. If you still have the ability to understand the 1763 map is what I called the ancient map, then read my last post again.
But I don't really expect you have the ability to read or to reason, and I don't care what you think any more. Your IQ is just ZERO. You better leave yourself a little self-esteem -- leaving this thread.
meecius said Einstein is a mathematician even after I told him Einstein published Reletivity and Quantumn theories.
By the way, correction, don't be surprised by the junk posts of meecius. He is not here to debate or to learn anything. If you read his posts throughout this forum, you will find he knows nothing in details, all he does is to post junks and of course to bump threads.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-20 05:22 AM ]
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-20 05:47 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 19-2-2006 21:17
But I don't really expect you have the ability to read or to reason, and I don't care what you think any more. Your IQ is just ZERO. You better leave yourself a little self-esteem -- leaving this thread.
If I had an IQ of zero I wouldn't be alive. But that's the kind of childish statement I expect from you. What's next? You're going to say I'm a "poopie-pants"? 
Whether I stay or go is up to myself. I have tried to reason with you over this map, but really you're only interested in trying to prove it's what it purports to be than consider it's based on a non-Chinese map. When so many people are sceptical of its nature, and very few believe it to be genuine, why do you refuse to acknowledge this?
There is a famous saying - "don't argue with an idiot because he'll beat you with experience". So I may decide to leave you to ramble on by yourself. Then again I may choose to stay.
QUOTE:
If you read his posts throughout this forum, you will find he knows nothing in details, all he does is to post junks and of course to bump threads.
I rarely bump my threads. On the other hand you bump yours, regardless of whether or not people are contributing to them.
By the way, you didn't answer my question when I last asked. Are you actually in China, because this is another time I've noticed you posting far too early in the morning for most Chinese (5:17 am).
[ Last edited by mencius at 2006-2-19 09:59 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-20 06:26 AM Subject: Reply #161 mencius's post
you can keep telling us that:
meecius said Einstein is a mathematician even after I told him Einstein published Reletivity and Quantumn theories.
and bump this thread. that's all you can do.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-20 06:28 AM Subject: For readers:
I have included a picture in post #150 where you can see the details of a Tai map.
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-20 07:08 AM Subject: Say whatever you like
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 19-2-2006 22:26
you can keep telling us that:
meecius said Einstein is a mathematician even after I told him Einstein published Reletivity and Quantumn theories.
and bump this thread. that's all you can do
And bringing up an irrelevant point (we are talking about history after all, not Physics) is all you can do to counter my posts. Feel free to keep doing it, as it will demonstrate the sophistication of your arguments.
FYI, I can't bump a thread if it's already at the top.
However if I do find more news on the map I promise to post it for everyone to enjoy.
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-20 12:42 PM Subject: I don't find your explanation fair and satisfactory
"Sorry, don't you know the history behind the evolution of humanity and its spread around the world? Ok, it all started in Africa - that's where the first humans are believed to have appeared. They then spread around the world over time.
If you look at the following map, you'll see that scientists believe that some people who settled in the Americas came via Asia, with others via Europe. Humanity didn't evolve around the world in isolated pockets - that's why we're all of the same species at all." QUOTE...
If what you said is true ('with others via Europe) then dna of European especially the Vikings should show up equally , don't you think?
Furthermore, according to Gabriel Novick and Colleagues findings which says that
“Close similarities between the Chinese and Native Americans suggests recent gene flow from Asia”
So isn't this another strong point to consider?
Moreover if you truly believe in the accounts of the Vikings travelling to America then you should also look at this account here :
"Iceland was first settled just prior to 1,000 A.D., and the voyages to Greenland and America took place about a generation later. Thorvald Erikson, younger brother of Leif Erikson, who led the first expedition to Greenland, was killed in a fight with Indians in Fall River, Mass. Their party was ambushed by Indians who had the use of gunpowder. His widow was among the party that experienced the gunpowder attack, so the date could not have been later than about 1100 A.D. How did these Indians have access to gunpowder, a Chinese invention? "
Doesn't this lend support to Chinese presence in America?
Actually Menzies in his book never denies that the Vikings having travelled to North America from Greenland, and if you have his book you should read it again. What he says is that the Vikings did not have any cartography knowledges and traditions. They did not produce any charts of their homeland and neither that of places they visited. Their navigation was based on oral traditions. He contends that oral traditions could not have produced details charts of the world as we know it from many charts which the show lands before any European explorers were there.
So back to the basic question in discussion, WHO WERE THESE PEOPLE THAT SURVEYED AND MAPPED OUT THE WHOLE WORLD AREAS BEFORE ANY EUROPEAN EXPLORERS WERE THERE? Could it be the Chinese Fleet?
If not who could have sent out thousands of ships, armed with advance navigational tools and skills to survey and map out the whole world before the Europeans?
[ Last edited by correction at 2006-2-20 03:19 PM ]
Author: mencius Time: 2006-2-20 05:23 PM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by correction at 20-2-2006 04:42
If what you said is true ('with others via Europe) then dna of European especially the Vikings should show up equally , don't you think?
Not if the number of people that moved there were mostly from Asia. If you look at native Americans (both north and south) they generally look more "Asian" than "European". And there is no way Asian explorers could have inserted that much DNA into the genetic makeup by themselves.
QUOTE:
So isn't this another strong point to consider?
Could be. I'm not an expert on genetics, so I can't put one theory over another. Some people support it, others don't.
QUOTE:
Actually Menzies in his book never denies that the Vikings having travelled to North America from Greenland, and if you have his book you should read it again.
I never said he denied it.
QUOTE:
WHO WERE THESE PEOPLE THAT SURVEYED AND MAPPED OUT THE WHOLE WORLD AREAS BEFORE ANY EUROPEAN EXPLORERS WERE THERE?
Caps please - no need to shout.
If you're referring to the map under discussion, then that has not been verified.
And that gunpowder issue sounds rather suspicious. That would mean the Chinese were in the Americas centuries before Menzies guesses. Now if Vikings had an oral tradition (and not a written one) that rather increases the chances it was a tall tale. After all, how would they know what gunpowder was at the time?
Really there are lots of issues to be dealt with. Currently, as I said before, the weight of general opinion is behind Menzies. If you really want to ask more questions on this, I think the best thing to do would be to e-mail some of the authors of the rebuttals. If or when more information comes to light to support his theories it would be fascinating. But that hasn't happened yet, so I'm not convinced.
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-20 06:22 PM Subject: Well, let's keep an open mind then!
" That would mean the Chinese were in the Americas centuries before Menzies guesses" Quote..
Reply : This could possibly be the case, bear in mind North America is closer to Asia than Europe and is only separated by the Berings strait! If the Chinese had sailed to the Northeast, they would have come to the Berings Seas. On records the Chinese had travelled thousands of miles to the shore of Africa, so crossing the Berings strait wouldn't be much of a problem for the Chinese. Besides, there are many ancient chinese records that seems to indicate Americas.
"Really there are lots of issues to be dealt with. Currently, as I said before, the weight of general opinion is behind Menzies. If you really want to ask more questions on this, I think the best thing to do would be to e-mail some of the authors of the rebuttals. If or when more information comes to light to support his theories it would be fascinating. But that hasn't happened yet, so I'm not convinced" Quote..
Reply : Yes, you sounded more reasonable this time. Instead of just dismissing the possibiliy of the Chinese fleet world-wide discovery and the Chinese map as a fake, let's just keep an open mind and wait for more informations to come to light.
[ Last edited by correction at 2006-2-20 06:35 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-22 12:01 PM Subject: Yes, let's keep an open mind
Here is another Chinese map story, this time it's from America.
I must say, I am lost in reading this story because the map dates way back, too far...I have no way to speculate, so I will just post the link and save it as a reference in case we need it in the future:
http://www.newsadvance.com/servl ... ;path=!news!archive
Author: tris06 Time: 2006-2-22 04:03 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1029313
what can i say?
They could have all gone to the america's
You want to refuse this posiblity?
Then why should anyone accept the possibilty that the chinese ever went
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-22 04:34 PM Subject: Yes, they could have all gone to America's, but..
If you're really closely following the discussions here, the issue here isn't just about going to America's. It's about who could it be that had SURVEYED AND MAPPED OUT THE WHOLE WORLD before the Europeans were there!
As pointed out by Menzies, there are a number of maps showing lands before the European were there or even ever started their explorations! In fact the European had maps that show almost the entire world before they ever started exploring lands they claimed to have 'discovered'!
If they had not been to places shown on these maps, just how did they get those informations to produce these maps in the first place? Someone else must have gone to these places, surveyed and mapped out before Europeans were there!
Are you still blurred?
[ Last edited by correction at 2006-2-23 11:56 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-23 11:57 AM Subject: Yes, that's my point too
QUOTE:
If you're really closely following the discussions here, the issue here isn't just about going to America's. It's about who could it be that had SURVEYED AND MAPPED OUT THE WHOLE WORLD ..
Discovering America is only a small part of it. One never realizes how important a world map could be until coming to the topics we are having here.
A map, a world!
That's a lot to discover, to explore.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-23 12:20 PM ]
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-23 12:37 PM Subject: The Europeans set sail with accurate maps that showed their destinations
Evidences provided by Menzies ;
The Europeans set sail with accurate maps that showed their destinations
Accounts of first European explorers to reach land it is claimed they discovered
• Columbus’ “discovery” of the Americas: Letter from Toscanelli to Columbus. “. . . I notice your splendid and lofty desire to sail to the regions of the East by those of the West [i.e. to sail to China westabout] . . . as is shown by the chart which I send you . . .” [chart is excerpt of Portuguese 1428 Master Chart of the world showing Antilia].
Letter from Toscanelli to King of Portugal. “[before Christopher Columbus set sail] ... from the island of Antilia known to you [Antilia is Puerto Rico discovered by Chinese in 1421] . . . to Cepangu [Japan] is...”
.Columbus’ log, Wednesday October 24th 1492 (when in W. Atlantic) “. . . I should steer west-southwest to go there [to reach Antilia] . . . and in the sphere which I have seen and in the drawings and mappae mundi it is in this region. . .”
Thus, according to Columbus, Caribbean islands appeared on Portuguese maps of the world (Mappa Mundae) before Columbus set sail.
• Cabral expedition to S. America. João de Barros arriving on the first expedition to S. America writes to King Manuel of Portugal: “ . . . The lands might the king see represented on the Mappa Mundi whom Pero daz Bisagudo has. . .” João continues that the only difference between Brazil the Portuguese have discovered in 1500 and Brazil shown on Bisagudo [da Cunha] 's earlier map was whether or not Brazil was inhabited.
Brazil had appeared on a Portuguese map before the first European expedition set forth.
• Dias and da Gama rounding the Cape of Good Hope. Dias’ chronicler describing their approach to the Cape of Good Hope. ". . . They came in sight of that Great and Famous Cape concealed for so many centuries. . ." This is the Cape drawn on Fra Mauro’s planisphere of 1459 (Fra Mauro was working for the Portuguese Government when making his planisphere).
Thus Southern Africa appeared on Fra Mauro's map prepared for the Portuguese before the first European expedition reached the Cape.
• Magellan, “First circumnavigation of the world”. On entering “Straits of Magellan” Magellan faced a mutiny - his sailors would not continue. Magellan quelled it by saying: “. . . The Captain General said there was another Strait which led out [to the Pacific] saying he knew it well and had seen it in a marine chart of the King of Portugal . . .” Later, Magellan, having crossed the Pacific, met the King of Limasarra. Note from Magellan’s chronicler: “. . . And he [Magellan] shows him the marine chart . . . telling him how he had found the Strait to come hither . . .”
Thus, according to Magellan’s official chronicler, the so-called Straits of Magellan appeared on a Portuguese chart before Magellan set sail, as did the Pacific.
• Cook’s Discovery of Australia and New Zealand. The ‘Dauphin’ map (1536) showing Australia was owned by the First Lord of the British Admiralty, Edward Harley. Dr Joseph Banks, who travelled with Captain Cook, bought it. Since Henry VIII’s day the British Government had owned the Jean Rotz chart which also showed Australia.
Australia was thus known to the Admiralty from two sources before Captain Cook set sail.
• Australia appeared on (Father Ricci’s map (1589) and on Hessel Gerritsz chart (1618 – Seville) (M Righton)
• The Pacific from Vancouver to “the Straits of Magellan” appeared on the Waldseemueller (1507) before Balboa “discovered” the Pacific.
• The Amazon appeared on the Piri Reis (1513[1501]) before Orellana “discovered” the river
• The Atlantic coastline of South America appeared on the Andrea Bianco map of 1448 before Columbus "discovered the continent.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-24 12:01 PM Subject: Thanks for the post
It's interesting to study all the details of maps. It adds a lot to the history.
I wish I could have time to pull out those maps so we can have a good look, but it seems impossible...
*
Here is a picture trying to show the scale of Zhang He's fleets:
1405年，一支庞大的船队驶出长江口，明朝三保太监郑和率27000多名将士开始了首下西洋的航程。在其后的28年间，船队战胜“洪涛接天、巨浪如山”的茫茫大海，友好访问了东南亚、印度洋、波斯湾、阿拉伯海、红海和非洲沿岸30多个国家，完成了震惊世界的伟大壮举，拉开了世界大航海时代的序幕。
郑和下西洋比哥伦布发现新大陆早87年，比达·迦马绕过好望角早92年，比麦哲伦环球航行早114年.
The fleet consisted of giant nine-masted junks, escorted by dozens of supply ships, water tankers, transports for cavalry horses, and patrol boats. The armada's crew totaled more than 27,000 sailors and soldiers. The largest of the junks were said to be over 400 feet long and 150 feet wide. (The Santa Maria, Columbus's largest ship, was a mere 90 by 30 feet and his crew numbered only 90.)
Loaded with Chinese silk, porcelain, and lacquerware, the junks visited ports around the Indian Ocean. Here, Arab and African merchants exchanged the spices, ivory, medicines, rare woods, and pearls so eagerly sought by the Chinese imperial court.
Seven times, from 1405 to 1433, the treasure fleets set off for the unknown. These seven great expeditions brought a vast web of trading links—from Taiwan to the Persian Gulf—under Chinese imperial control. This took place half a century before the first Europeans, rounding the tip of Africa in frail Portuguese caravels, 'discovered' the Indian Ocean....
Photo: 郑和下西洋船队编队模拟效果图
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-5 05:34 PM ]
Image Attachment:
scale of zheng He fleets.jpg (2006-2-24 12:21 PM, 26.91 K) / Download count 89
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=12973
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-24 12:24 PM Subject: One of the ship yards of Zheng He's fleets
郑明，海军少将，中国造船专家。1994年4月，郑明从担任10年之久的海军装备技术部第六任部长的位置上退了下来。但他退而不休，继续他数十年与海、与船的情缘，并把精力全部投入了郑和下西洋历史的研究。这些年来，为了让全社会都来关注郑和、关注海洋，他多方奔走呼吁，乐此不疲。
万吨宝船是怎样建造出来的？
“郑和下西洋体现的成就有多辉煌？”听到提问，郑明两眼中突然流露出一种异样的光彩：“郑和率领的混合舰队，船舶吨位之大，航海人员之多，组织配备之严，舰队航程之远，续航时间之久，航海技术之先进，造船工艺之优异，历史影响之深远，实为中外航海史、造船史、海军史上之壮举！”
他说，明代先进的造船技术，突出表现在航海船舶体积的增大上。为了提高远洋运输能力，郑和航海着重建造了超大型船舶，使船队的载重量大幅度增加。当时建造的史无前例的大型宝船，长140.75米，宽57米，排水量超过万吨。
关于郑和宝船的尺寸，一直是研究者争论的焦点。有的学者质疑：如果大型宝船的排水量有上万吨，要多粗的龙骨才能撑得住？
“大型宝船确实建造过！”郑明通过查阅大量明代史籍，并据《天妃经》、《武备志》的插图和记载分析，大号宝船在郑和下西洋活动中曾参加隆重庆典，作为皇帝检阅郑和舟师编队之用，不出海也不下西洋。而郑和下西洋船队是以几十艘“二千料海船型”宝船作为主力船型，此外还有“一千料海船”、“八橹船”等主要船型。
“这‘料’是破解明代船舶大小的关键。根据我的多方考证，二千料的海船长度应在十五丈到二十丈之间，排水量超过千吨，和现在的护卫舰相当。”郑明说。
宝船厂遗址发掘当评年度“十大考古发现”？
当然，要建造这样的巨船，必须有与之相适应的造船设备、巨大规模的造船厂和海港。“这在郑和时代早就实现了！”郑明自豪地说。
2003年，作为中国航海历史上重要发现的明代宝船厂遗址在南京龙江船厂重见天日。“那儿就是当时大规模的造船基地和停泊中心之一，迄今还留有作塘(船坞)和水道。经现代实测，作塘长约500余米，宽约40米。站在与遗址一街之隔的高楼上放眼北望，可见近处3个作塘与不远处的长江浑然一体。”经过1年的发掘，明代船厂遗址如今初显真容，让郑明兴奋不已。这种巨型船坞，莫说中国历史上亘古未有，在当时世界上也是首屈一指的，它是中世纪中国造船业在全世界遥遥领先的明证。
“这一遗址的价值，决不亚于故宫和天坛。”郑明说，“它完全可以参评年度‘十大考古发现’！”
然而，事实上却没有。宝船厂遗址本来是7个作塘，现在已人为被填埋了4个。“这真让人揪心啊！”郑明说。如今，两片正在建设的大型小区工地隔塘而望，小区建成后，遗址的整体景观无疑会遭到极大的破坏，甚至沦为高楼的“洗脚盆”。
“我们很多人对于海洋事业和历史遗迹的淡漠已经到了让人忍无可忍的地步。”郑明显得忧心忡忡。
http://news.shangdu.com/16/2005-06-24/20050624-837358-16.shtml
Photo: 建造庞大舰队的明船坞遗址
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-3 11:32 AM ]
Image Attachment:
One of the ship yard.jpg (2006-2-24 12:24 PM, 31.83 K) / Download count 63
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=12974
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-24 12:35 PM Subject: They said their ancestors were from China
These people said their ancestors were from Zheng He's fleet, left in Africa after one of the commercial ship hit a rock in the sea.
Here is part of an article from NOVA which stated:
by Evan Hadingham
In 1999, New York Times journalist Nicholas D. Kristof reported a surprising encounter on a tiny African island called Pate, just off the coast of Kenya. Here, in a village of stone huts set amongst dense mangrove trees, Kristof met a number of elderly men who told him that they were descendants of Chinese sailors, shipwrecked on Pate many centuries ago. Their ancestors had traded with the local Africans, who had given them giraffes to take back to China; then their boat was driven onto the nearby reef. Kristof noted many clues that seemed to confirm the islanders' tale, including their vaguely Asian appearance and the presence of antique porcelain heirlooms in their homes.
If Kristof's supposition is correct, then this remote African outpost retains an echo of one of history's most astonishing episodes of maritime exploration.
Six centuries ago, a mighty armada of Chinese ships crossed the China Sea, then ventured west to ...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sultan/explorers.html
古朴陶罐、瓦当残片默默地诉说着500多年前郑和船队到来给当地带来的巨大影响。
据中国史料记载，明朝郑和船队曾于永乐十三年（公元1415年）抵达今天肯尼亚境内的马林迪、蒙巴萨等沿岸城市。这是中国人到达东非的最早记录。在郑和七下西洋首航600周年纪念日来临之际，我们来到肯尼亚东部沿海地区，沿着印度洋海岸寻访当年郑和船队的遗迹。
■拉穆群岛的中国人后裔
我们第一个目的地是肯尼亚北部的拉穆群岛。从首都内罗毕坐飞机经过大约40分钟旅程后，我们便来到了这个以红树著称的美丽的地方。
在拉穆群岛上，长期以来一直流传着一个关于中国水手的传说。
传说500多年前“三保太监”郑和率领的中国船队在下西洋途经拉穆地区时，一艘“宝船”在迷失方向后触礁沉没，幸存的中国水手上岛定居，并与当地黑人通婚、繁衍后代。这一传说并非“空口无凭”，因为在拉穆的各个岛屿上，的确有一些居民长相颇似中国人。我们此次要探访的就是当地一位据称最像中国人的小女孩———姆瓦玛卡。
姆瓦玛卡的家位于拉穆帕泰岛的西屿村。从拉穆镇到帕泰岛要经过一条狭长的海峡。我们雇的黑人船工兼导游看来已经接待了不少中国游客，在穿过海峡之后，他指着前面离我们越来越近的帕泰岛上一片沙滩说，那就是传说中中国水手上岸的地方。
沙滩后面曾经有个村子叫“上家”，是这些水手最初定居的地方，后来不幸毁于战火。此后，大多数中国人后裔才移居到西屿村。
离船上岸后，穿过一片小小的椰林，我们便来到了要探访的小女孩姆瓦玛卡家，没想到我们却被告知姆瓦玛卡目前远在蒙巴萨，而且最近不会回来。
正在失望之际，从里屋走出的女主人让我们眼前一亮：她的皮肤比黑人要白得多，甚至有点黄种人的肤色特征。乍一看，真的很像中国沿海地区皮肤被晒黑的渔民妇女。她告诉我们她的名字叫巴拉卡·谢（Shee），丈夫是当地普通的黑人，小女儿姆瓦玛卡不同于当地人的长相就是遗传于她。看到我们对她的姓氏产生了兴趣，谢告诉我们，这是因为其祖先就是当初上岛的中国水手。
当地还有人姓万（Vae），不过几年前搬离了帕泰岛。她告诉我们，在帕泰岛，其被称作“瓦上家”人，这是拉穆群岛居民对中国水手后代的独有称呼，当地斯瓦希里语的意思是从上家来的人。当地历史学家怀疑“上家”（Shanga）这个名字来源于中国的上海。
我们在帕泰岛上了解到，当地居民都以捕鱼为生。但有资料说，该岛上的居民曾经长期养蚕织丝，而这些技术很有可能源于中国水手，只不过几十年前因为手艺失传丝织业渐渐在当地消失。
http://news.shangdu.com/17/2005-07-05/20050705-845463-17.shtml
Also read another more in-depth article:
http://news.163.com/50116/2/1A6F7FMP00011247.html
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-5 06:10 PM ]
Image Attachment:
Africa.jpg (2006-2-24 12:36 PM, 43.24 K) / Download count 69
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=12975
Image Attachment:
Africa2.jpg (2006-2-24 12:46 PM, 23.83 K) / Download count 65
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=12976
Image Attachment:
Chinese African.jpg (2006-3-3 11:28 AM, 27.21 K) / Download count 58
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=13849
Image Attachment:
image 2.jpg (2006-3-3 11:28 AM, 33.72 K) / Download count 59
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=13850
Image Attachment:
image.jpg (2006-3-3 11:29 AM, 21.11 K) / Download count 61
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=13851
Author: correction Time: 2006-2-24 12:43 PM Subject: Thanks for the pictures
"It's interesting to study all the details of maps. It adds a lot to the history. " quote..
Reply : Yes, it's interesting to study all the details of these maps that show lands before the Europeans were there or even started their explorations. I think it would be more interesting and exciting to solve the mystery, who were the people that had surveyed and mapped out the whole world and passed the informations to the European maps makers! I think we're getting quite close to it now.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-24 12:47 PM Subject: Thanks for sharing with me, correction
Let's keep searching !
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-26 08:54 AM Subject: Share this article with you
I have sid earlier that Chinese sea exploration started long time ago, before Zheng He. If Chinese didn't have enough knowledge, the emperor wouldn't sent Zheng He's huge fleets out. Just Just take this as a reference.
Yuan Dynasty Foundation of Zheng He’s Voyages
By Gunnar Thompson, Ph.D., Director
New World Discovery Institute, Seattle, Washington
Library of Congress Presentation, May 16th 2005
Zheng He Symposium
(Background Information for this Illustrated Presentation)
The countries and peoples of East Asia had a curiosity about the world that reaches back into antiquity for thousands of years. As far back as the days of the Founding Emperors, the ancestors of the Chinese people engaged in seafaring adventures across the globe. They sailed in the company of mariners from India, Vietnam, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, Cambodia, Persia, Kamchatka, and from other regions of the Far East. Many of these mariners reached the shores of the New World where they contributed to the rich ethnic and cultural fabric of the Native Peoples. They returned to Asia with a variety of New World plants including maize (corn), tobacco, and chilies; and they obtained such valuable commodities as jade, copper, gold, furs, exotic feathers, dyes, and assorted drugs and aphrodisiacs.
Although official government policy in China sometimes excluded foreigners or restricted overseas merchants to border villages, the reason was not due to a lack of interest in world affairs. The main reason was usually the result of a need to maintain political stability or to prevent the spread of pandemic diseases. Enterprising merchants continued to build large ships and to sail abroad in spite of the official policy—even during the infamous overseas travel restrictions of the later Ming dynasty. Overseas travel was also a passion among Buddhist and Muslim missionaries for many centuries—and it resulted in the spread of Confucian, Buddhist, and Moslem influences to the New World.
In 1255, Marco Polo’s father, Niccolò, traveled to China in order to spy on the Mongol Emperor Kublai Khan. His reign in China (1260-1293) was partly the result of an inheritance from his grandfather—the conqueror Genghis Khan. He completed the conquest of Southern China leaving many regions devastated by warfare and genocide. Kublai captured the Sung navy; and he contemplated the conquest of Japan. Many Europeans of that era dreaded the possibility that Kublai Khan’s Mongol armies might attempt a maritime invasion from across the ocean. This was regarded as a very real possibility because most Europeans during the Middle Ages believed that China was situated directly to the west on the opposite side of the Atlantic Ocean.
The threat seemed even worse when Franciscan spies overheard conversations among Chinese and Korean explorers who said that they had identified “New Lands” lying far to the east of Japan. These were the legendary isles of Fu Sang, the Isle of Immortals, and Ta Han (or North America).
After living in China for ten years and becoming a confidant of the Emperor, Niccolò Polo returned to Venice where he recruited his son, Marco, to serve in the secret service. The Polo team of Niccolò, Maffeo, and Marco reached the court of Kublai Khan in 1275. Because he had already learned the essential languages of commercial leaders and the Mongol diplomatic protocols, Marco was deputized as Kublai Khan’s special revenue agent and diplomat. He was entrusted to accompany the overseas mapping expeditions of teams of Chinese, Korean, and Persian explorers who were sent to the Arctic regions and to the West Coast of the New Lands. Marco’s mission was to conduct diplomatic affairs and to compile an inventory of export commodities while trained surveyors charted the seacoasts, harbors, and rivers. These expeditions had combined military, commercial, and political goals.
http://www.marcopolovoyages.com/ ... rThompsonIntro.html
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-26 08:56 AM ]
Image Attachment:
stamp.jpg (2006-2-26 08:56 AM, 43.94 K) / Download count 68
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=13230
Author: braveworld Time: 2006-2-26 08:13 PM Subject: PhoenixTV interviewed Liu Gang on the 1418 map
Shan,
I enjoyed your work and your diligence. Do keep up your good work!
I saw Liu Gang, lawyer and collector of the 1418 map, was interviewed by Wang Lu Xiang, possibly the most knowledgeable history and culture commentator in PhoneixTV, today (Feb 26, Sunday) at 5:30PM Zheng He Time.
Wang Lu Xiang cited the major points from the critics, Liu Gang was seen tackling each queries.
The closing remarks of Wang Lu Xiang was very appropriately and timely put - the Chinese scholars and historians must learn from their Western counterparts to do better research, scientifically, we need to find out the truth, not for our ego, but for our people.
There are re-runs at 2:30AM and another one at 9:00AM on Feb 27, Monday.
Brave New World
An Open Mind, See What You May Find!
________________________
Author: joeching Time: 2006-2-26 11:24 PM Subject: shan, i lost ur last 2 emails by accident.
but it's no big deal, when compared to what u r contributing in this thread on zheng he. to me, zheng he should be the turning point in world history, from which china should rechart her path, hopefully void of 200 yr interruption by the westerner.
[ Last edited by chinadaily at 2006-2-27 08:39 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-27 09:46 AM Subject: Reply #179 braveworld's post
QUOTE:
Wang Lu Xiang cited the major points from the critics, Liu Gang was seen tackling each queries.
The closing remarks of Wang Lu Xiang was very appropriately and timely put - the Chinese scholars and historians must learn from their Western counterparts to do better research, scientifically, we need to find out the truth, not for our ego, but for our people.
Thank you for your post and the info about Pheonix TV program, I will try to catch up with it. I feel especially k the same way Wang Lu Xiang felt that we Chinese scholars must learn from their western counterparts in doing research, scientifically. That's a point I mentioned earlier on this thread too. Many of them are simply lack of the ability to scrutinize the western scholars's work at all.
The recent development has rebuked a few of the strong Chinese critics already. It is at this time I feel so much appreciation to Gavin Menzies, a British.
Thank you again for your encouragement and participation to this thread, braveworld.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-27 09:58 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-27 09:55 AM Subject: Reply #180 joeching's post
Joe,
Thanks for your kind words, I am really just trying to learn and sort out a few things here.
I was a little nervous when I saw your name on this thread because I knew what you would say, but you are so welcome to join in when you have time. I plan to copy your post on Zheng He to this thread at some point after we finish the technical discussions and move on to political implication later. I will try to drag you in.
Yes, there is so much to talk and to learn in terms of rechart China and the world.
I am angry that you lost my emails, 
.... Of course, I am kidding . I will send you again, maybe tomorrow.
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-2-27 10:00 AM Subject: Reply #177 shanhuang's post
Shanhuang - No need to worry.
You just have to come to Malacca to believe Adm Zheng He was here before!!! He has his temples and now his statue is erected in the famous historical site just beside the river.
Author: braveworld Time: 2006-2-27 12:12 PM Subject: PhoenixTV interviewed Liu Gang on the 1418 map
Shan,
You may write to Wang Lu Xiang: culture@phoenixtv.com.cn to get a transcript of the interview, so everyone has a chance to read Liu Gang's briefing.
After I have followed closely to Gavin Menzies' theory for the past 24 months, here are a few lines I like to share with your viewers:
"Get to the bottom of it, to find the truth,
if it's a forgery, we'll refute,
if it's true, let's reflect why we've been so wrong.
Wake up the armchair and archives historians,
make all these, if it's true, known to our children.
Our quest is not about our ego,
The facts matter our people.
Missing the greatest achievements our ancestors did,
we will have the same mistakes in our future bid.
For all Chinese, 1421 is not a bandwagon,
it's a shock treatment, a phenomenen.
Do our best, learn our past.
We need to be a child again, I say:
Fearless, no worry of losing face.
We fall, we crawl,
we explore, we stand tall.
Great people still fail,
but great people prevail"
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-28 07:17 PM Subject: To braveworld
Thank you so much again for the poem, braveworld. It's so moving and beautiful. Menzies is brave. I can see how much pressure he bears.
The Chinese scholars should have the courage to take the task as a responsibility not for themselves but for the people, for the spirit of truth.
"Get to the bottom of it, to find the truth,
if it's a forgery, we'll refute,
if it's true, let's reflect why we've been so wrong.
Wake up the armchair and archives historians,
make all these, if it's true, known to our children.
Our quest is not about our ego,
The facts matter our people.
Missing the greatest achievements our ancestors did,
we will have the same mistakes in our future bid.
For all Chinese, 1421 is not a bandwagon,
it's a shock treatment, a phenomenen.
Do our best, learn our past.
We need to be a child again, I say:
Fearless, no worry of losing face.
We fall, we crawl,
we explore, we stand tall.
Great people still fail,
but great people prevail"
一种精神，一种文化，一种博大，一种情怀，一种自强不息的探索，一份对历史的责任感
I will send an email to pheonix TV to see what I can get...keep my finger crossed.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-28 07:23 PM ]
Image Attachment:
Zheng He fleet.jpg (2006-2-28 07:23 PM, 32.71 K) / Download count 70
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=13462
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-2-28 07:32 PM Subject: Reply #183 caringhk's post
OK, caringhk, I will remember your words. I do come asross many materials about Zheng He's trail left in different countries. Here is an interesting reading from Sri Lanka. It gives us a vivid picture of how Zheng He interacted with the locals:
The trilingual inscription of Admiral Zheng He
In 1911, a carved stone was discovered covering a culvert near Cripps Road in Galle. The finder, provincial engineer Mr H.F. Tomalin, had it removed to safety. Scholarly excitement was immediate, but the inscriptions were only deciphered with some difficulty.
The tablet was erected in 1411, to commemorate the second visit to Sri Lanka by the Chinese admiral Zheng He(1), who commanded seven great voyages through the South China Seas and the Indian ocean between 1405 and 1433.
On the first voyage, Zheng He reached Sri Lanka in 1406. The local ruler was unfriendly and the expedition hastily departed. The fleet sailed on to Calicut, the furthest port for the first expedition, where they were most impressed by the acumen and straight dealing of the traders.
The second expedition went as far as Siam. The third sailed from China in 1409, and carried with it the trilingual tablet which Zheng He planned to erect in Sri Lanka. The date equates to 15 February 1409, indicating that it was inscribed in Nanjing before the fleet set out. The Chinese portion gives praise to Buddha and records lavish offerings in his honour:
'His Majesty the Emperor of the Great Ming dynasty has despatched the eunuchs Zheng He, Wang Jinghong and others to set forth his utterances before Lord Buddha, the World-Honoured One:
Deeply do we revere you, merciful and honoured one, whose bright perfection is wide-embracing, and whose way of virtue passes all understanding, whose law pervades all human relations, and the years of whose great era are as numerous as the sands of the river; you whose controlling influence ennobles and converts, whose kindness quickens, and whose strength discerns, whose mysterious efficacy is beyond compare! The mountainous isle of Sri Lanka lies in the south of the ocean, and its Buddhist temples are sanctuaries of your gospel, where your miraculous responsive power imbues and enlightens.
Of late we have despatched missions to announce our mandates to foreign nations, and during their journey over the ocean they have been favoured with the blessing of your benificent protection. They escaped disaster or misfortune, and journeyed in safety to and fro.
In everlasting recognition of your supreme virtue, we therefore bestow offerings in recompense, and do now reverently present before Buddha, the Honoured One, oblations of gold and silver, gold embroidered jewelled banners of variegated silk, incense burners and flower vases, silks of many colours in lining and exterior, lamps, candles, and other gifts, in order to manifest the high honour of the Lord Buddha. May his light shine upon the donors.
List of alms bestowed as offerings at the shrine of the Buddhist temple in the mountain of Ceylon:
1,000 pieces of gold; 5,000 pieces of silver; 50 rolls of embroidered silk in many colours; 50 rolls of silk taffeta, in many colours; 4 pairs of jewelled banners, gold embroidered and of variegated silk, 2 pairs of the same picked in red, one pair of the same in yellow, one pair in black; 5 antique brass incense burners; 5 pairs of antique brass flower vases picked in gold on lacquer, with gold stands; 5 yellow brass lamps picked in gold on lacquer with gold stands; 5 incense vessels in vermilion red, gold picked on lacquer, with gold stands; 6 pairs of golden lotus flowers; 2,500 catties of scented oil; 10 pairs of wax candles; 10 sticks of fragrant incense.
[Date]. A reverent oblation.'(2)
The Tamil portion of the tablet offered similar praise to the god Tenavarai-Nayanar, perhaps a local form of Shiva, and the Arabic inscription gave praise to Allah. To each god the Chinese offered similar lavish tributes.
Such tactful even-handedness suggests that the Chinese were dealing with a cosmoplitan trading community. However, the aura of orderly diplomacy dissipated rapidly. The island comprised three warring states, and it was the chief Alakeswara who met Zheng He. Refusing to allow erection of the tablet, which he presumably considered a declaration of sovereignty, he beat the Chinese in a brief skirmish and drove them back to their ships. They sailed on to India, but returned to avenge the insult. What happened next is controversial, and the accounts are confused, but the Chinese abducted 'the king' (Alakeswara in the Chinese account, the legitimate king of Kotte according to the Sinhalese account). The captives were taken to the Ming capital at Nanjing, but released by the emperor and returned to Sri Lanka. There are stories of the Chinese taking the Sacred Tooth of the Buddha. Author Louise Levathes, trying to make sense of the conflicting accounts, guesses that the captive was the King of Kotte, who took the relic with him to China in order to prevent it from falling into the hands of the usurper Alakeswara, but in any event the Tooth too was soon back in Sri Lanka. The Yongle emperor claimed sovereignty over Sri Lanka and demanded regular tribute, and the Sinhalese went along with this for over forty years before refuting the obligation in 1459.
As well as the various religious influences in the country, the Chinese had noted its tremendous wealth of gemstones and pearls. They remarked on the curious impression in the country's highest mountain, a giant 'footprint' which Buddhists associate with the Buddha, Moslems with Adam, and Hindus with the god Shiva.
The interior of this mountain produces red rubies, blue sapphires, yellow Oriental topaz, and other gems; they have each and every precious stone. Whenever heavy rain occurs, the water rushes out of the earth and flows down amidst the sand, and the people search in the sand for the stones. There is a saying that the precious stones are the crystallised tears of Buddha.(3)
The trilingual inscription is in the National Museum in Colombo; a copy may be found in the Maritime Museum in Galle.
http://cf.hum.uva.nl/galle/galle/trilingual.html
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-2-28 07:40 PM ]
Author: joeching Time: 2006-3-1 02:05 AM Subject: shan, i hope u guys will break new ground this time.
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 2006-2-27 09:55
Joe,
Thanks for your kind words, I am really just trying to learn and sort out a few things here.
I was a little nervous when I saw your name on this thread because I knew what you would sa ...
my older brother, whom i try to convert to this new belief, want bet a $1000 with me that this new "discovery" would not last more than another 2 years. i hope u prove him wrong.
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-1 09:40 AM Subject: Reply #186 shanhuang's post
Yes Shanhuang, I remember having read somewhere.
Good that now we know together.
The most important here is "ALMS".
Think clearly about it and do it with sincerity whenever there are Buddha statues or monks.
P/S : Personally, i received some Buddha Sakyamuni crystals in January.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-1 12:31 PM Subject: Reply #187 joeching's post
QUOTE:
my older brother, whom i try to convert to this new belief, want bet a $1000 with me that this new "discovery" would not last more than another 2 years. i hope u prove him wrong.
Joe,
I will have to do my best to help you get the $1000 dollars. I have confidence but we do need time.
Author: greendragon Time: 2006-3-1 12:36 PM Subject: Reply #185 shanhuang's post
Excellent!
fm
Green Dragon
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-1 12:37 PM Subject: Reply #188 caringhk's post
"There is a saying that the precious stones are the crystallised tears of Buddha."
Isn't it beautiful?
Also, have you noticed in the article "As well as the various religious influences in the country, the Chinese had noted its tremendous wealth of gemstones and pearls. They remarked on the curious impression in the country's highest mountain, a giant 'footprint' which Buddhists associate with the Buddha, Moslems with Adam, and Hindus with the god Shiva."
It again said Chinese respect all kinds of religions.
What is ALMS by the way, caringhk? Meditation?
How nice you got some Sakyamuni Buddha crystal.
Photo:
Sakyamuni Buddha was the first Buddha worshipped with its origins in India. Buddha statues were later brought to China where they were sculpted to provide an object for meditation and to promote Buddhism in China.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-1 12:42 PM ]
Image Attachment:
origsaky.gif (2006-3-1 12:38 PM, 44.77 K) / Download count 64
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=13507
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-1 01:19 PM Subject: Reply #191 shanhuang's post
YES,Sri Lanka or Ceylon mountains are full with GEMS(precious stones)and heard it said to be related to Buddha. Buddha Ser Li Cher(crystals)
was divided into seven portions + 1 later the ash to be distributed to the monks and Kings where they will build Stupas where now one can circumambulate from left(facing the stupa) to right chanting sutras.
What is ALMS by the way, caringhk? Meditation ?
Yes it is meditation. But meditation by the monks whom one support with alms.
From the sutras,an old lady was about to go out instruct her daughter that when your brother(monk living in a cave near their home) comes for his alms round, give him the good rice cooked with good dishes. And what will mum eat? I will eat the porridge left over from yesterday. And for the evening meal, i will eat the broken rice with some leftover dishes.
The monk was about to go out for his alms when he overheard the conversation with his divine ear. I will not go out until i achieved Nirvana for this lady has made great sacrifice for my betterment. He put down his alms bowl, washed his feet and with all his strength, meditated and concentrated. When he has achieved Nirvana, he went for his alms round. The daughter gave him the food as instructed.
She saw the clarity on the monk face,his skin glowing golden, so cool. She knew
his brother has done what need to be done.
Later when her mum came back, she told her everything. The mother was very happy. So giving alms to support others to achieved Nirvana is the same feeling we received when we know the one has done the job.
So Buddha said the greatest of all gift is the gift of Dharma.
This also answer in part yr earlier question on practise.
The Buddha you posted is seated in the Lotus posture.
GReat if you know the feeling. Now i know after nine years of practised.
[ Last edited by caringhk at 2006-3-1 01:25 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-3 11:47 AM Subject: Reply #192 caringhk's post
caringhk, you are a very good storyteller, thank you for sharing the beautiful story with me.
As you know I am not a buddhist, but as a Chinese, I feel I could relate to it sometimes.
Now I know what we call ALMS in Chinese, it's called 画圆, isn't it?
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-3 06:30 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-3 11:47 AM Subject: Reply #190 greendragon's post
greendragon master,
Thank you very much !
_____________
For readers' information"
I have updated several posts on page 18 of this thread by adding more photos and stories about the photos which i didn't have enough time to do earlier.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-5 07:15 PM ]
Author: JohnCJ Time: 2006-3-3 11:57 AM
The Vikings beat you to it.
Author: correction Time: 2006-3-3 12:18 PM Subject: What do you mean?
"The Vikings beat you to it. " quote..
You mean surveying and mapping out the whole world ?
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-3 02:40 PM Subject: Reply #193 shanhuang's post
I checked ALMS with translator
施捨 or 施舍
but you have to see whether it fit.
Another way is give me the Pinyin in English!
Don't worry too much.
With just a story,you may find yourself looking for more when your "seed" is ripe.
Most sifu mentioned "yuen-fern".
I have an old man, 70+ in Singapore asking me how to meditate.
I taught him. He knows the basic Lotus postures.
I will teach another friend perhaps and his wife as he now cannot go to work.
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-3 04:44 PM Subject: Reply #192
Shanhuang - You should know this story,today news.
Zhang Zhongxing was a broad-minded man. We often discussed Buddhism. I hope he will be fine in heaven," said Yan Zang, a monk from neighboring Hebei Province, who had known Zhang for 30 years.
Zhongxing, a master of Chinese language, literature and culture studies.
What you think of the possibility after 30 years?
Author: christopher_104 Time: 2006-3-3 06:01 PM Subject: Reply #198 caringhk's post
QUOTE:
There is a saying that the precious stones are
the crystallised tears of Buddha."
Isn't it beautiful?
Yes it is.
Buddhism is the only faith to tolerate people like
me . My young relative (11) who has recently converted
from Catholicism to Buddhism informs me that
Buddhism accepts even tolerates people who
respect religion but do not believe in a divine God.
I have said this before and I repeat it again:
Buddhism will grow in the west and I hope
it does.
[ Last edited by christopher_104 at 2006-3-4 03:00 AM ]
Author: markwu Time: 2006-3-4 07:12 PM
i must thank caringhk for a most unusual suggestion;
he said:
"bend the mind".
up on the coldest hill in Hefei, i finally understood what he meant but without the words to describe it here.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-5 03:56 PM Subject: Reply #199 christopher_104's post
QUOTE:
I have said this before and I repeat it again: Buddhism will grow in the west and I hope it does.
Christopher,
I will be happy if the westerners learn and know what Buddhism is about, so they can have a comparison at least.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-5 04:18 PM Subject: Reply #197 caringhk's post
caringhk,
画圆 (hua yuan) is asking for food; 施舍 is giving food. So we are close. Thank you for the translation.
About Zhang Zhongxing, it is undeniable he is the master of of Chinese language, literature and culture studies. And no one can become a master like him without understanding Buddhsim. It's part of Chineseness. So no surprise their friendship lasted for more than 30 years...
It's such a loss, he will be remembered. 
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-6 09:38 AM Subject: Reply #199 christopher_104's post
Chris - Don't worry, it is growing and will continue to grow. Monks has been inform to go to the WEST years ago to spread the dharma.
I have seen Monks who are westeners bowing and praying like Buddha did. They came with Ven. Chin Kung and there are many more. There are German monks, French,English,Australian,American and if i can remember right,One African in South Africa. Mikeghet posted some pictures of temples he took in New York city.
There are too many to mention but just go see it for yourself whenever opportunity present itself.
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-6 09:41 AM Subject: Reply #200 markwu's post
Dear Mark - Good you understand.
I read one of the 11 factors to Nirvana is weather. Not all of us are great men who can weather the extremes of weather. But one should make use of good weather to practise as such opportunities are rare indeed.
Write to me whenever you need to clarify anything as something words cannot and is not sufficient to describe certain feelings or situation.
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-6 09:44 AM Subject: Reply #202 shanhuang's post
"And no one can become a master like him without understanding Buddhism"
So now you see Buddhism provides wisdom. I am English educated but you can feel the difference in my writings.
Good is to learn "mindfulness".
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-7 10:41 AM Subject: Now a little focus on North America
We have showed plenty of evidences that Chinese reached not only east coast but also other areas of Africa, Chinese in fact mapped out Africa even before Zheng He. A frequent question then rasied here is about North America, here is an important trail to follow and to exam....
The First Public Announcement and Presentation of the Remains of a Pre-European Chinese Settlement on the East Coast of North America
A lecture presented by Paul Chiasson at the Symposium on The Significance of Admiral Zheng He’s Voyages (1405 – 1433) held at the Asian Division of the Library of Congress, Washington, D.C.
Monday, May 16, 2005
This lecture will be presented with visual documentation, aerial photographs, site photographs, and illustrations of the various elements noted.
Outline of Presentation
The site described is located on Cape Breton Island, on the far eastern edge of North America off the Canadian coast and the peninsula of Nova Scotia. Cape Breton is positioned at a critical turning point in the Gulf Stream Current, at the place where its warm waters meet the cold northern Labrador Current flowing in the opposite direction. At this juncture, just off the island’s east coast, the rich nutrients in the Gulf Stream, when meeting the cold waters of the northern current, support the largest edible fish population on the planet. The island also has the largest exposed coal seam along the Atlantic coast. During the nineteenth century, because of this high quality and easily available fuel source, the island was considered the Newcastle of North America. For these reasons, and for its ideal location at a key navigational position in the North Atlantic, the island has been home to centuries of European explorers, adventures, visitors, and settlers. With a documented history stretching back to its discovery by John Cabot in 1497, the island is the oldest successfully located, named and mapped territory in North America. The ruins are located on the summit of a steep rocky cape that juts into the Atlantic, just over 300 meters high and surrounded by ocean on three sides, difficult to access, and all but forgotten.
The ruins found so far are organized into three areas: the wall, the town site, and the village area with its surrounding farmland, all connected by a series of roads that measure over eight kilometers in total. The wall is the largest and most notable ruin on the site and can be seen best from aerial photographs of the area taken over the past seventy years, through various seasons and in various conditions. The walled enclosure is roughly rectangular, approximately one kilometer long and varies between 250 and 400 meters wide, with its longest dimension running along the north-south axis. The total length of the wall, measured from the aerial photographs, is just under three kilometers. On the site, in those areas where the wall is accessible and uncovered, the remains appear as a low ribbon of loose stones about eight meters wide laid over the landscape and following the hilly terrain up and down the side of the mountain, along the shore of a neighboring river and along the site’s upper edge just below the summit.
What remains of this wall appears to be characteristically Chinese: the upper section of the wall, constructed typically of hardened earth, has long since dissolved leaving only the ruins of the stone base; the wall is located off the summit but on a terraced, hilly site near fresh running water; being self-sufficient, the site was built on a mountain distant and unrelated to the neighboring shoreline, its bays or its harbors; the wall shows no signs of having been constructed for defensive purposes but rather simply as a defining enclosure; the wall is built much larger than the single small town site that it encloses with much of the additional land still dense wilderness; and there appear to be openings or gateways facing in the four primary directions leading out of the wall to the surrounding landscape.
On the southeast side of the site within the walled enclosure is an open rectangular area, approximately 400 meters by 100 meters, with the long dimension running north-south, cleared in the distant past, and terraced down the hillside. Built into these terraces are the remains of flat, rectangular stone platforms that match Chinese construction methods. There are no stone walls, no door nor window openings, and no fireplace nor chimney stacks on the site that would indicate a Europe origin of the ruins. The stone platforms are all that remain. The buildings built on top of these platforms, traditionally constructed primarily of timber, would have long since disappeared, and only the flat stone bases are still terraced into the hill. Some of these individual platforms sit alone while some have been organized together in small groups around open courtyards. The platforms are residential in size, all within the same scale, and are oriented with their outer edges facing the open site and the long ocean horizon in the distance. In all aspects, it appears to have been a Chinese town.
There are approximately fifteen of these flat rectangular stone platforms. The only building not constructed in this way is located on the east side of the site. It was built primarily of stone masonry and may have been more than one story. There are examples of stone stairs and of large, rectangular cut stones laid linearly. Although the use of masonry on the site appears most obvious in this single structure, there are other examples of cut stones littered throughout the site and even the remains of a small quarry that has a number of broken and discarded diamond shaped stone paving tiles.
The road leading up to the site from the shoreline is in very bad condition. In those areas that have weathered best, it is obvious that it was well made, with a smooth and well maintained surface, and once had low stone walls lining both sides, sections of which still exist in their ruined state. The most unusual aspect of the road, however, is not that section which climbs the steep east side of the mountain and enters the large enclosure along the south wall, but that section of the road that exits the walled enclosure from the west side. This west road, far removed from the shoreline that has traditionally been the only location for settlement and industry on the island, is still wide and clear in sections. In those areas where the surrounding forest has invaded its borders the least, its width is approximately three meters, the size of a traditional double-width Chinese road.
This western section of the road travels a short distance over a plateau that spreads beyond the enclosing wall. The road then splits into various branches that snake through what appear to have been cleared fields. Now meadowland, these clearings that line the sides of the roads are cut sharply along the edges of the dense surrounding forest and have the size, the shape, the look, and the feel of farmers’ fields. However, they are located on the top of a mountain, far removed from the shoreline, and so appear to have been associated exclusively with the neighboring walled enclosure.
Each of the roads in this area ends in a slightly enlarged cleared rectangular space that can best be described as an open courtyard. These courtyards, each measuring approximately 20 by 22 meters, are on the same level as the road and have the same hard packed and finished surface. As well, the aerial photographs appear to indicate that the land immediately surrounding these open courtyards was once the site of small-scaled construction. A change in the type of vegetation in these areas shows the remains of rectangular structures that had been built around the courtyards. From initial observations, the foundations still outlined by the change in plant type indicate the type of spreading, randomly enlarged courtyard houses built directly on the land on top of hardened earth foundations, a method of construction typical in small villages throughout China.
There is also a series of individual, small, oval shaped stone remains that run along a ridge outside the main wall down from the summit, protected by land from above and on both sides and with a extensive view of the ocean and highlands in the distance. In both their unusual form and their specific location these stone remains suggest graves. This type of tomb structure built outside the wall, naturally protected by the surrounding landscape, and with a view outwards, like the other elements of the site, appear to indicate that this was a major Chinese settlement.
The ruins have all but escaped serious interest for over five hundred years. Their unusual form is partially responsible, for in no way do the ruins appear like the remains of a European settlement. Their location alone - on the near summit of a steep wilderness mountain - has made the study and explanation of the site all but impossible. Very early in the history of Cape Breton strange ruins where mentioned, but with the early uncertainty between European empires over who left what behind first, on an island with one of the longest and most involved early histories in the New World, the ruins were easily ignored as being confusing and of little significance. Even the French who occupied the island for most of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and who built the grand fortress city of Louisbourg along its coast, declared this specific mountain to be of little value and not worth improving. Extensive maps and surveys of the site made in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries show no construction in the area. The site and its remains have been misunderstood, overlooked, and all but forgotten until this announcement.
Paul Chiasson
pdcc@sympatico.ca
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-7 11:02 AM Subject: From braveworld
Our forumite Braveworld has found Liu Gang's interview in this important link for us, he probably got confused a bit and posted the information on a different thread for me. I just saw it today and copied it to this thread.
braveworld
Newcomer
UID 91887
Digest Posts 0
Credits 4
Posts 4
Registered 2006-2-26
Status Offline
Dear Shan,
Kindly see the full transcript of the interview of Liu Gang, the Beijing lawyer and owner of the 1418 map, by Wang Lu Xiang of PhoenixTV on
Feb 26.
See http://blog.phoenixtv.com/user1/whdgy/archives/2006/9235.html
BraveWorld
----------------
2006-3-5 02:24 #64
Thank you very much, Dear braveworld !
I will expand the content after I have a chance to read it.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-9 11:07 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-7 06:23 PM Subject: Reply #205 caringhk's post
caringhk,
Sorry that I didn't have enough time to reply you earlier as you can see I suddenly got some new materials on this map story as shown above. I wanted them out so others can read.
Yes, I can tell you are different even if you were western educated. I sensed you know a lot about Buddhism. It's great to have you here, really.
By the way, I forgot to tell you that the first time I learned about 画圆, it was on top of Mt. Huangshan.
My friends and I went to visit a Buddhist temple there just for fun. But on our way out (not far from the temple), we saw a monk holding a rice bowl without vegetables in it. I asked my friends what he was doing. One of my friends told me that the monk just came back from 画圆. So I asked him what is 画圆. .... At the moment my friend told me what it is, I was speechless, I almost wanted to cry. And That's the first even serious impression Buddhism had on me.
This happened on my first hiking to Mt. Huangshan, where I saw the mountain peaks floating above the sea of clouds under bright Moon light, so quiet, I stayed for hours watching it, .... No language can describe its beauty, no picture can capture the feeling....
And I call myself Shan Huang.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-7 07:49 PM ]
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-8 09:39 AM Subject: Reply #208 shanhuang's post
Yes i understand the priority.
Actually learning for real experience in the best form for understanding feelings.
A little bit more, while receiving the alms, the monks must think of "NO giver,No reciever and also the dharma". This practise will increase the awareness(mindfulness) He must not be careless at that moment.
Do you know WuTai shan, near Beijing? It is place for Wern Ser Ser Li Pusa(Manjusri). And Putou Shan(Ningbo), Kuang Yin Pusa(Avalokitesvara).
There is a few more but i can't recall them right now.
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-8 01:17 PM Subject: #208 - Buddhist monks head to campus for degrees
The abbot Chang Chun who's in charge of Shanghai's thriving Jade Buddha Temple is interviewed as he enrolled in the MBA class by Shanghai's Jiaotong University last summer. [cctv]
Since set up in 2004, more than 100 monks from temples around the city have signed up for the course at East China Normal University.
The monks study the same subjects as ordinary art majors, including Chinese literature, history, English, management and psychology.
"We will strengthen subjects like Chinese literature, culture and history part, which we believe are more practical for Buddhist students, and set up other subjects to broaden their minds," said Xie Anding, director of ECNU's school of continuing education.
Buddhist students, most of who are between the ages of 30 and 45, have to sit the public college entrance exam for adults before enrolling in the course.
Similar to ECNU, Shanghai International Studies University has teamed up with Shanghai's renowned Jade Buddha Temple to offer foreign language training programs for monks since last year.
Jiao Tong University's Antai even launched a MBA training course for monks last year, equipping the clergymen with modern business management concepts.
"The biggest purpose for these higher educational classes is to enhance clergymen's overall quality and help them become more engaged with the outside world," Xie said.
Monks in the city usually graduated from special Buddhist schools, which offer about the similar education level as middle or high schools. But individual monk
s differ much in their personal academic levels.
Wu Duan, abbot of the Xilin Temple in suburban Songjiang District, said that he does well in ancient Chinese literature, but English is a big challenge for him.
"Nowadays, I have to get up at 5am and read not only Buddhist texts but also English textbooks before breakfast every day," said the abbot.
"Studying is hard, but I'm still happy to have such an opportunity to keep up with modern society," Wu said.
I went to Jade Temple in '04 with my mum and niece.
I saw the monks in the study room,actually library but no chance to talk to them.
I managed to get their internet address from the clerk.
There i bought many types of chinese teas as there is a big teashop specialised in traditional teacures combined by the skills of the monks.
Maybe you can find a few roof tiles with our names on it as we made donations.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-9 11:20 AM Subject: Interviewing Liu Gang in Chinese
Our forumite braveworld has brought us this interesting interview of Liu Gang, here share with you:
天下诸番识贡图
PART 1
发布会观众：我觉得非常有意思。感觉好象是我们（欧洲人）卓越的位置被替代了。
发布会观众：我认为他现在给我们提供的证据，还不足以得出（郑和环球航行）的结论。
发布会观众：他犯的特别在印尼和加州那些错误，我知道，是所有坐船的人到那都会犯的错误。
解说：2006年1月16日，收藏者刘钢在北京三里屯的一个酒吧向国内外媒体第一次展示了《天下诸番识贡图》，这幅图可能是根据郑和航海的发现绘制的世界地图。地图公布几个小时后，世界各地媒体迅速做出反应。
解说：中国正史记载，郑和下西洋只抵达了印度洋和东南亚一带。可是《天下诸番识贡图》（却包含了这样的信息：也许）在六百年前中国船队已经绕过好望角，发现了北美洲，抵达了麦哲伦海峡，甚至穿越了南北极！（其实，这个惊人的假设并不是第一次提出），一位有着丰富航海经验的英国人孟席斯在他的著作《1421中国发现世界》一书中也有同样的观点。那就是，是中国人首先进行的环球航行，发现的世界。
孟席斯：有人在欧洲人之前就已经发现了世界。
主持人：英国退役海军军官孟席斯，在他所著的《1421中国发现世界》一书中得出这样的结论，1421年以前，中国发现美洲大陆，早于哥伦布七十年，中国人发现澳洲早于库克船长三百五十年，中国人达到麦哲伦海峡比麦哲伦的出生还早一个甲子，也就是六十年。这样看来，过去的历史课本都可以扔了，过去学的也可以遗忘了，因为这本书可能会颠覆一些既有的认知。相反在郑和的故乡中国，知识界对此采取的是等待和观望的态度。而《天下诸番识贡图》的亮相，恰巧可以证明英国人孟席斯的观点，最早发表这幅地图的英国《经济学人》杂志，称郑和可能是击败哥伦布最早发现美洲大陆的人，而且比1421年还要提前三年，是1418年，我们今天的《文化大观园》就请来了，《天下诸番识贡图》的主人刘钢先生。
解说：刘钢，北京人，爱好收藏北京古地图。在他的办公室随处可见各种各样的收藏品。
主持人：您这张地图是什么时候，在什么地方发现的呢？
刘钢：我这张地图呢，实际上是在2001年，春季的一天，我正好是在上海出差，每次出差回北京之前我都抽出一两个小时到当地的古玩街上去逛一逛看看有什么可以值得买的东西。在那个东台路这条街上，那条街上有个小书店专门卖旧书旧报纸，还有古地图的，不大，但我那天去正好是看见它，上面挂着几张图我就看，发现这张图，因为这张图非常特别，第一它是一个世界地图，第二他这世界地图的图形很特别，它是连环形。
主持人：对，就是一个双环型。
刘钢：双环型，对，这种图形非常特别，我当时就觉得好像是欧洲人不这么画图，并且我再仔细在看它的注释的时候就发现非常有意思的问题。左下角那写着乾隆（葵）未仲秋月，仿明永乐十六年，天下诸番识贡图，落款是臣莫易仝绘。这个时间，这个注释就告诉我们这个绘图的时间是1763年。
主持人：1763年。
刘钢：绘图人叫莫易仝，他是仿明永乐，也就是1418年的一幅名为《天下诸番识贡图》这么个图，我再看内容就觉得不对劲了。因为1418的时候不可能有
主持人：这样的世界知识。
刘钢：这绝对是跟
主持人：跟我们的常识是不符的。
主持人：对对对。
刘钢：那我又看它很多注释，注释我觉得也非常非常奇怪。因为我了解欧洲，欧洲人，他一般他注释他，他们对“食人”就这个概念，虽然是事实，他们不说。
主持人：对，不说的。
刘钢：对，所以我觉得非常有意思，好在价钱也不贵，只有四千，我也没跟他砍价我就给拿下来了。
主持人：拿下来了。
刘钢：拿下来了。
解说：刘钢买得地图之后开始潜心研究地图中的每一个细节。为此他阅读了大量中外有关文献。他深信欧洲古代航海家也许正是拿着这幅地图的副本展开地理大发现的。然而，要了解《天下诸番识贡图》，我们得先从它的出处谈起。
主持人：我们知道，现在的文物商店也是会卖假东西的。
刘钢：对。
主持人：而且东台路上的假东西可以说是非常非常的多，那么您有没有更进一步的它的来路上头做更进一步的调查呢。
刘钢：我通过三个方面，就对它的来路，实际上进行考证。第一个，就问小贩从哪来的。那个人是说这个东西是从一个景德镇老宅子里出来的。
主持人：到了江西了。
刘钢：对，从那个地方出来的。具体问他老宅他说他也不知道。第二方面我是查莫易仝。
主持人：莫易仝这人。
刘钢：我觉得这个人是如果是能查到，这个人不管是什么样的人。
主持人：只要史载有其人。
刘钢：对，有其人就有帮助。
主持人：对。
刘钢：我查了很多资料，就是图书馆我也查过，查了很多资料，查不到。
主持人：到现在也没有。
刘钢：现在也没有。
解说：绘在竹纸上的《天下诸番识贡图》上面主要由四种颜色绘成。注释字的黑色，陆地的黄色，标记注释的朱砂红色和海洋的青蓝色。这些颜色到了收藏家眼里，具有了别样的含义。
刘钢：第三方面我实际上是通过就是根据我自己的经验，看这个图的表面，这个图的表面你可以看，它红啊，它是用朱砂红画的，朱砂红它里头是带有矿物质的。
主持人：对。
刘钢：朱砂红画完之后，要在很长的时间之后，它会变深，发黑。对。这造假啊，它要是画上去的话，要想把这个颜色变成那种颜色几乎是不可能的。一定要有时间。
主持人：要相当的时间才可能。
刘钢：才会有可能，这是第一点。第二点你看它的用的那个画海洋的色。
主持人：对。
刘钢：它实际上是带蓝，用那个植物色彩画的，但是它时间长有点发绿了已经开始。
主持人：这应该是花青里头加了一点点墨。
刘钢：对对，这种方式呢如果造假他有也会造，他怎么样呢就拿水一遍一遍过。洗出来以后几乎都差不多一样的，他是这种自然掉的，就比如说折的地方就掉的少。
主持人：少，成片的地方稍微就多一点。
刘钢：并且还有最最主要一点，就是平常造假者是不注意的，我一般看它着色的时候找它的第一笔，你看它退色的时候你就能看出它第一笔在哪儿，这个图的第一笔，就是它一般涂颜色，第一笔是颜色最深的，越往后涂它就越浅了，它这第一笔，对，在那个方向，在右手从上往下，现代人写字是，对，在那边，左手，从左。
主持人：方向感。
刘钢：方向感，造假者不注意这些。
解说：按照刘钢的观点，从这幅地图得出的重大意义在于：如果假设《天下诸番识贡图》是用郑和船队下西洋带回的地理、人文知识绘成的，那么许多我们现在认识到的的古人的宇宙地理观和将被完全颠覆。
刘钢：我觉得第一个得出的观点就是对中国人，就是我们对古人的宇宙观的理解，现在是有重大的错误。别的不详细说，就说天圆地方，天圆地方在古代实际上是有两种不同的解释，民间的解释，就是我们现在所说的，天是圆的像个大锅盖往上一扣，地是一个方的。但是当时的知识分子，特别是星象学家，他们是这么理解的，天圆，圆是指本性，圆是指动，方是指地的不动的本性，而并不是指它的形状。
刘钢：第二点就是说这个图说明，早在1418年中国人不仅仅绕地球一周，而且是绕了好几周。
主持人：好几周了，对。
刘钢：不仅仅绕了好几周，把世界地图都给画出来了。还一点可能很多人就没有注意，郑和实际上不仅仅是画出了图，实际上是引导后面的地理大发现的那些先驱们，去做所谓的发现，实际上真正引起地理大发现，真正使世界走向全球化的先驱是郑和。
PART 2
主持人：刘先生对郑和发现世界的说法深信不疑，但是单靠一张地图就说600年前有此壮举真是有待考证，我第一次看《天下诸番识贡图》的时候，有一个字首先让我对这幅图产生了疑问，我们知道，职贡图是外国及中国境内少数民族上层向中国皇帝进贡的纪实图画，我们现在能看到的职贡图，好像从唐代就开始有了。我在台北故宫博物院看到过清朝康熙年间的职贡图，图上所画台湾高山族人用鼻孔吹双音笛的情景，后来我又在高山族的部落里亲眼见到亲耳听到，在那个没有照相术也没有摄像机的年代，职贡图用纪实手法向皇帝和中央政府报告了许多周边少数民族与外国的风物，这种职贡图让皇帝知道天朝之下有多少番邦，这些番邦穿什么衣服有何特产，皇帝可以依此图叫各番邦上贡什么奇珍异产。因为在中国古代朝贡制度之下，番邦对天朝的上供是一种职责，所以此类图画统称为职贡图，但识贡的说法，并未在其他文献中见到过记载。
主持人：《天下诸番识贡图》这个识显然好像是个错别字。
刘钢：我注意有学者这么说。
主持人：我们中国的过去汉语中间有没有识贡这个词，对吧，这可能是个问题。如果遍查中国典籍的的确确没有识贡这一词，而只是在这张图上首次出现，而且唯一出现。这当然可以让人产生一定的怀疑。就是这个里头写了个错别字。那么（有）错别字就有可能让人怀疑到这张整个图的真伪，那么。
刘钢：我不这么看。
主持人：那么您觉得古代有叫识贡图的吗？
刘钢：我觉得是这样啊，我们首先分析一下具体的字，职贡图确实以前有过，唐代职贡图，职按中文来讲，职责，责任，这是什么含义，你皇帝规定你按时，按期或者按量你来进贡。
主持人：进贡当地的土特产，我们叫做方物。
刘钢：对对，识什么含义，是另外一个含义，认识，发现，所以我觉得，如果在这副图上，如果是职贡图，写上职字，《天下诸番职贡图》反而就不对了，因为你那个时期，刚刚发现世界，你还没有和世界大多数民族，国家，建立联系，你刚刚发现世界，谁给你有那责任去进贡。中国人在那个，用词造句方面是有很多的天分的，他会根据具体的情况，用具体的词，如果是职贡图反而就有问题，识贡图恰到好处。
解说：《天下诸番识贡图》是按照上北下南左西右东的地理方位绘制的。网络上有朋友认为：地图以北为上南为下的概念应该是从西方传入的，六百年前的地图不这样定位，所以《天下诸番识贡图》只是欧洲地图的仿制品。
刘钢：欧洲人早期的地图是东冲上，这是出于它的宗教信仰，因为耶路撒冷无论是伊斯兰教还是基督教都是圣地，所以他画的时候耶路撒冷那方向在上面，到了郑和时代过后，也就是十五世纪中期，突然间他们世界地图方向就变了，变成北冲上了，北冲上实际上中国地图很早很早就开始，就是比较规矩了，元代的，1136年绘制的《与地图》，北很清楚，还有这，这也是，
主持人：平江，苏州。
刘钢：北冲上。
主持人：北冲上，北在上面。
刘钢：很多很多，基本上我的感觉是，这个北上南下，它来源于什么呢，两方面的因素，第一方面风水。
主持人：风水，对。
刘钢：人们都认为坐北朝南是最好的位置。
主持人：南面称君，然后北向称臣对吧。
刘钢：对对，所以这方面一个方面是风水，一方面由于孔子的礼仪制度，两个综合起来，就形成中国的地图，基本上有一个规律，北冲上。西方的地图，一开始不是北冲上的，反而到郑和时代之后。 主持人：把这个概念传过去了。
刘钢：传过去了，从此造成现在世界地图无论什么图，大到世界地图，小到一个街道的图，几乎都是北冲上。
(continue to next post...
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-9 11:25 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-9 11:21 AM Subject: Continue...
主持人：在《天下诸番识贡图》的现今靠近北欧的位置上有这样的一段注释，此地人多奉上帝，教名曰景也。景教是基督教的一个教派，景教教派的大主教因主张基督具有神和人的双重属性被正统斥为异端，他的信徒逃亡东方，于公元六世纪左右传入中国，有专家认为，经过朝代沿革景教的说法已经不存在了，直到1625年，西安《大秦景教流行中国》碑出土以后，才又把基督教和景教对应起来，另外上帝作为基督教God的译名的说法，应该是17世纪中后期才出现的，由此专家认为这是《天下诸番识贡图》的硬伤，它绝对不是15世纪地图的临摹品。
刘钢：景教，实际上很早就发现在西安。
主持人：唐代。
刘钢：唐代的。
主持人：景教流行碑。
刘钢：对，景教流行碑。
主持人：而且那个时候长安就有很多的这个景教徒，基督徒。
刘钢：对，然后史书上记载呢，元代实际上中国人很多人是信基督教，天主教，还有其他从西方传过来的。
主持人：传过来的，对。
刘钢：当时景教据有关史学家认为，景教是一个统称。
主持人：是个译音。
刘钢：译音对，所以在元代的时候一直管这些教叫景教，所以明初的时候自然就继续延用这个说法。这是关于景教的我的一个看法。
关于上帝，上帝他说的没错，到目前为止，是没有发现有关的文史资料能够说明就是以前的，就利玛窦来之前，出现过上帝这个对译词，你只要，我看有篇文章写的那个景教流行碑，他仔细研究了，那个碑文大概两千多字，有三十处涉及《易经》，另有约三十处涉及《诗经》，还有很多其他都涉及到古代的有关的古籍，所以这说明呀，当时的人呀，在传播和信教的过程中，很多词是参考了古籍的书。虽然我们目前没有发现有关证据，但是我觉得不能排除这种可能性，那会儿的中国人已经把这个God，英文的God这个词翻译成上帝，道理很简单，God，上帝，这是宗教的核心。
主持人：对。
刘钢：你必须得有一个词对应，
主持人：必须有的，否则的话这批信徒怎么凭什么开口啊，没法开口啊。
刘钢：但是没有任何记载说他叫什么，我觉得你也不能排除说他就不叫上帝，因为特别是它很多的碑文上，很多内容都来源于这些。
主持人：古代的，特别是上古三代的一些书嘛。
刘钢：而上帝那个最早出现的还就是在那些书上。
主持人：对对。
刘钢：所以我觉得非常是有可能的。这是第一点，第二点你看利玛窦的书他是这么说的，“天主即华言上帝”。
主持人：华言上帝。
刘钢：就是天主啊就是你们说的那个上帝，所以虽然我们到目前没有发现，就是在元代明代，就是那个God这个词，到底是不是上帝，没有记载，但同时也没有找着一个词就说，那会儿人管上帝到底叫什么，
主持人：对。
刘钢：没说，所以实际上是，我觉得是一段，欠研究的一段史实。
主持人：对对对，空白区。
刘钢：但是你根据这个空白区你就说没有，我觉得这个就是比较武断了。
PART 3
主持人：一般认为中国最早刊行的世界地图，是利玛窦的世界地图，其中介绍的许多地理学理论和世界知识都是闻所未闻的新知，包括地圆说，五大洲观念，经纬度的概念和测量方法等等，但是按照刘钢的考证，他认为利玛窦在绘制世界地图的时候是学习了中国的世界地理已有的知识。
刘钢：利玛窦刚到中国的时候，也是认为他一开始是相信那些老百姓，他只知道老百姓这么认为，但随着和中国的文人的接触，他逐渐了解到，中国的那个天圆地方实际上还有另一种解释，所以在他1602年画的那个万国图中，他有个注释，注释上写，“所谓地方非指其形，而指其不动之质”，所以从这方面来讲，实际上是我认为首先从地球观来讲，认为利玛窦把这个地球观介绍到中国，这实际上就是一个不符合事实的一个结论，这是第一。第二我们如果仔仔细细研究利玛窦画的那个《坤舆万国全图》的话我们会发现利玛窦实际上画这个图的时候，他不仅仅参照了欧洲的地图，实际上参照了中国在他来之前已经画的世界地图。这些世界地图的范围包括美洲，包括非洲，以及包括西伯利亚，比如说在南美，在巴西那个部位，利玛窦他有一个注释，南亚墨利加，就是南美洲，分为五邦，一个是孛露，一个金加西蠟，还一个是坡巴牙那，还一个智里，最主要是第五伯西儿，他说五曰伯西儿，即中国所谓苏木也，就是他西方管这地方叫伯西儿，就是Brazil。他说了中国管它叫苏木，所以他这个注释就是与我们的历史教科书上就完全不一样了，历史教科书上说的是，在利玛窦来中国以前，中国人根本不知道南美洲北美洲，根本不知道。
主持人：根本不知道，对。
刘钢：但利玛窦本人却不是这么说，利玛窦说在古代的时候，中国人不仅仅知道那个地方，而且还给那一地方起了名字，所以我们到底相信谁，是相信利玛窦呢，还是相信历史教科书呢。
主持人：对，这就有个问题，利玛窦的这个知识，关于中国的古地图学的世界的知识，是怎么来的。
刘钢：对。
主持人：也就是说他肯定是和中国学者交往过程中间，对吧，他把这个地图，就像今天我们两个人一样，比如说假如说我是利玛窦，你是一位中国学者，我带了一张这个世界地图来了。现在我跟您说，刘先生这个地方我们叫伯西儿，对不对呀，您过来凑近看一看，说不，这个地方我们中国古代叫做，把这个地方叫苏木。
刘钢：对，我觉得就是这样。
主持人：对不对呀。
解说：公元1431年，正使太监郑和、王景弘等人在第七次出使西洋前夕，在福建长乐刊立《天妃灵应之记》碑，又叫郑和碑。碑文记述1405年至1431年间，郑和六次下西洋的经历。它是研究郑和不可多得的第一手资料。《天妃灵应之记》碑里有一句话：“其西域之西，迤北之北，固远矣，而程途可计”，说的是郑和船队的航行范围。西到西域之西，北到北疆之北，虽然很遥远，但是里程还是可以计算的。令人惊讶的是，刘钢通过这句话得出了一个惊人的结论：郑和已经抵达了北美洲！
刘钢：如何理解这个西域之西，最关键的一点怎么理解西域这个概念。
主持人：西域这个概念。
刘钢：对，史学界我觉得他们一直，一致认为西域是分两个概念，大小不同。
主持人：小西域概念和大西域概念。
刘钢：小西域概念就是指葱岭那一带，就是新疆葱岭到敦煌那一带。
主持人：大概这一块吧。
刘钢：那一带呢实际上是在汉代的时候，管那地方叫西域。
主持人：对。
刘钢：但实际上据我了解就是，到了唐代，随着丝绸之路向西延伸，这个西域的范围就逐渐扩大到地中海沿岸。
主持人：这一片都在有了。
刘钢：还有非洲东岸，非洲北部。
主持人：非洲北部，北非地区。
刘钢：特别是他的长乐碑，郑和的长乐碑我仔细看，它的用词非常讲究，它这个碑碑文不是他一个人写的。
主持人：碑文在某种意义上是整个郑和舰队向天妃娘娘的一次汇报工作。
刘钢：所以我觉得这个西域呀，正确的理解是大西域概念，包括非洲地中海那边，所以西域之西应该是指地中海非洲北部再往西，再往西就是海了，所以越过海你可以看到是北美洲。
解说：所谓迤，字典上的解释是：向某方向延伸。迤北就是向北方延伸，所谓迤北之北是说比北疆还要往北的地方。但是，正史记载郑和船队是一路南下到达非洲东岸，跟北方是无关的。刘钢认为这是对碑文解读的失误，郑和的航海范围不只是印度洋，应该还包括更广阔的北方。
刘钢：迤北之北，这个实际上也是非常有意思的一个概念。按照目前史学界的理解，郑和船队从太仓出发之后一到海上直接就南下了，他根本没有往北去，但为什么他要说迤北之北。
主持人：如果我们按照过去的说法，郑和的整个的航行的这个方向和他所去的地方和北没有关系。
刘钢：一点关系都没有。
主持人：一点关系没有，南下嘛，从南中国海，一直然后到了个马六甲海峡穿过去，应该说就是往西了，对不对呀，也就是说它的整个航行方向，只有一个南和西。
刘钢：对。
主持人：没有北的概念。
刘钢：对，就是按照现在的地理概念，我们如果从中国到北极这是往北走，从北极再往下到北美，应该往南，但当时没有很清晰的，他们就觉得往那走就是北，所以呢这两，他这个西域之西，迤北之北，我觉得他都指一个地方，都指一个郑和认为是最最远的地方。
主持人：远的地方。
刘钢：这个地方你如果从这看就是北美，从北边可以过去，从西边也可以过去。
主持人：1957年一位西班牙收藏家用3500美元购买了一幅中世纪古地图，《温兰地图》，捐赠给了美国耶鲁大学，耶鲁大学视之为镇校之宝，但是地图鉴定的结果却自相矛盾，地图的羊皮纸被证明出自哥伦布以前的15世纪，而对墨水的鉴定结果则有两种说法，一者认为墨水确实是中世纪的墨水，二者则认为墨水中的化学成分是1920年才开始使用的，因此《温兰地图》成了饱受争议的高明的伪造品，刘先生的《天下诸番识贡图》的纸张目前正在北京和伦敦的研究结构做年代鉴定还没有结果，由于种种原因刘先生没有对地图的墨水去做化学鉴定，但这就让人们不免想起《温兰地图》纸张和墨水时代不同而产生矛盾的例子，我们究竟应该相信科学的鉴定呢，还是收藏家的个人眼光。
主持人：这种鉴定的东西如果要追究下去的话，的的确确是一个非常麻烦的问题，因为我们要求证据是像逻辑上的要一个充要 的一个，在各种条件完全要互相之间能够相互证明，然后这个最后才能成为一个铁案，你包括像刚才说的纸张证明是那个时候的，颜色、墨水，证明是那个时候的，它仍然可能被人说明不能是一个铁证。因为为什么，在古书画作家中间，我们现在说要造一个乾隆年间的一个假的东西，我有乾隆年间的纸，我也有乾隆时候的墨。
刘钢：对。
主持人：对不对啊。然后我弄出来以后你要对它进行物理化学鉴定的话，一切证明它都是乾隆年间的，但它的的确确是件新的。
刘钢：对，我为什么没有做墨测验啊，也是这个原因。
主持人：也是这个原因。
刘钢：结果不能说明问题。
主持人：不能说明什么问题，对。
刘钢：不能说明问题，想要攻击你的话，什么都能说。你还是凭收藏家的经验去看，有些东西是造假者是做不出来的。
主持人：对。
刘钢：刚才我已经说了，还有最主要一点，造假者的特点他都是模仿，他不可能画出他根本不知道的东西。
主持人：也就是说做古书画的这个字画的这个假，需要高超的这个艺术，造古地图的假，需要太多的这个全面的知识。
刘钢：全面的知识。
主持人：稍微一个地方露一个破绽，不能自圆其说就有可能满盘皆输。
刘钢：对。
刘钢：这个地图公布于世有很多目的，其中有一个目的我是想通过这种方式给史学界提个建议，就是去年吧很多学者都在提出这么一个口号，对郑和航海的研究，要大胆设想。
主持人：小心求证。
刘钢：小心求证。
主持人 对。
刘钢：我觉得历史研究你不能光凭自己怎么想，脑子里所有的，我觉得这八个字应该换成放开眼界，对比研究，你不要光局限于你自己的书本，要多看，包括国外的，国内的，不仅书本上的，还有其他的一些根据当时的特点等等，很多因素，放到一起，进行对比，综合研究，得出自己的结论。
主持人：从去年轰动全球的孟席斯的《1421中国发现世界》，到刘钢先生的《天下诸番识贡图》，这些对郑和下西洋的“业余爱好者”们引领着全球们的目光回到了600恩多年前的伟大航行，当然我们很多人会说，我们为什么老是抱着一种阿Q心理，说我们祖上比你们阔，这实际上跟阿Q心理无关，虽然现在还不能完全证明他们的观点的确凿性，但是我们褒扬那些抱着求实态度和求真精神去还原历史的精神，既然外国人在孜孜以求的做这件事，那么我们中国人为什么不去做这件事情呢？祖先的荣耀，不是我们的荣耀，但它可以成为我们自尊自信自强的精神源泉，好，我们今天的节目就到这里，如果您有什么意见和建议，请写信到屏幕上的电子信箱，您还可以登陆凤凰网文化大观园博客与我们互动，谢谢收看。
http://blog.phoenixtv.com/user1/whdgy/archives/2006/9235.html
Thank you again, braveworld!
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-9 11:23 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-10 12:12 PM Subject: Reply #209 caringhk's post
caringhk,
Yes, I know a number of famous Buddhist or Daoist moutains in China, we call them sacred mountains. Besides, Wu Tai Shan, Pu Tuo Shan, we also have Tai Shan, E Mei Shan, Jiu Hua Shan, Hua Shan, etc.
Image Attachment:
Mount Tai_Shan.jpg (2006-3-10 12:13 PM, 31.33 K) / Download count 53
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=14881
Author: wowzers Time: 2006-3-10 12:35 PM Subject: Well said!
"I was speechless, I almost wanted to cry. And That's the first even serious impression Buddhism had on me.
This happened on my first hiking to Mt. Huangshan, where I saw the mountain peaks floating above the sea of clouds under bright Moon light, so quiet, I stayed for hours watching it, .... No language can describe its beauty, no picture can capture the feeling....
And I call myself Shan Huang."
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-10 01:26 PM Subject: Reply #213 shanhuang's post
Yes, I have a book on the 5 Great mountains of China.Most of them have Giant Buddha on it and not to say great temples.
Will be glad if you could post more pics.
On my 1st vist to Lin Shan Ta Fo,Wuxi, i saw the monks and lay people chanting in the hall. I clasped my hand and jioned them. On my 2nd visit, i chant sutras and circambulate with my mum,China colleagues following me behind.
In Jade Temple Shanghai, a lady with her mum joined me during my prayers.
They even bought us tickets to see the Jade Buddha carved with white Jade from Burma,now Myanmar. And they offered oil as alms and decided to buy some home.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-14 11:56 AM Subject: Reply #215 caringhk's post
caringhk,
You see I can name some Buddhist mountains but I can't name the buddhist figures in the different temples. I know too little still.
Here is a picture of pilgrams climbing Mt. Hua Shan. (Not Huang Shan)
You can see a few more from this link:
http://www.sacredsites.com/asia/china/sacred_mountains.html
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-14 11:58 AM ]
Image Attachment:
Hua_Shan.jpg (2006-3-14 11:57 AM, 46.29 K) / Download count 49
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=15268
Author: caringhk Time: 2006-3-21 01:15 PM Subject: Reply #216 shanhuang's post
They are now showing Adm Zheng He trip by CCTV with Jiangsu broadcasting
on our TV2 at 3-3.30pm every Saturday.
There is 5 series.
The last section is on Q&A.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-25 10:40 AM Subject: Reply #217 caringhk's post
Thanks caringhk for the information.
But here we have much more exciting news cominng out. You will have to read in the next few posts...
Take care.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-25 10:46 AM Subject: On Page 16, 2006-2-19 09:38 I have informed that the map was tested authentic!
On Page 16, 2006-2-19 09:38 I have informed that the map was tested authentic!
Here is the post, let me repost it. The reason I do this is because now both western and Chinese media are reporting that the ancient map are tested AUTHENTIC.
[size]Civilisation: The Slaves aand Masters Game
Saturday February 11 2006 17:56 IST
T J S George
Obsessed with politics, we don't notice what is happening to civilisation. More is happening to it than the Islamic upheaval against European blasphemy. That is essentially political.
The civilisational world is all about the advancement of knowledge and discoveries. As it happens, in this world too, Western civilisation is currently feeling a bit rattled. They have spent centuries establishing that all knowledge, all break-throughs, all progress began in the Caucasian West. Now they are being forced to admit that yet another of their conclusions is unsustainable. Columbus did not "discover" America. Zheng He did.
Admiral Zheng's Chinese fleets sailed the world between 1405 and 1435, more than half a century before Columbus saw the "New World" (1492) or Bartolomeu Dias the Cape of Good Hope (1488). Zheng's accounts appeared in a book in 1418. Now a navigator's map of the world made around 1418 and copied in 1763 has been found and tested as authentic. It shows Africa, Europe, the Americas and of course Asia fairly accurately. Australia is there too, but placed off course. Experts believe this could well be the first ever map of the world. Clearly Chinese explorers were circumnavigating the globe long before Ferdinand Magellan (the "discoverer" of the Philippines) thought of it in 1519. The Chinese map recognised the world as spherical _ 50 years before Copernicus was born to propound the theory that the earth was a sphere revolving round an axis; almost 200 years later the Roman Catholic Church would still be busy condemning Galileo for the "heresy" of supporting Copernicus.
Which shows that the West was pretty late in catching up with the East. Centuries late. That did not stop them from claiming overall fatherhood. As late as the 17th Century, they taught that human civilisation had its roots in the Caucuses and flowered in Greece. This was the defining "Aryan model" buttressed by the argument that Indo-European languages were the bedrock of modern civilsation. Greece thus became the fount of all the philosophies, all the sciences known to us today.
The arguments have been blown to bits by eminent scholars, but these scholars remain on the periphery. Martin Bernal (author of the famous "Black Athena" which exposed "The Fabrication of Ancient Greece") was sidelined by the West. George Gheverghese Joseph has not been rubbished perhaps because his "The Crest of The Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics" is sharply focussed and impossible to refute.
Joseph's seminal work shows that the earliest numerical patterns were developed in the Swaziland region around 35,000 BC, that the most practical system of number notation was devised by the Mayans of Central America around 400 BC. In the four great river valley civilisations of the ancient world _ Egypt, Mesopotamia, India and China _ mathematics was a fully developed science.
But there was one huge difference between the West and the East. They recorded and chronicled everything, we didn't. So, researchable knowledge fills their ledger. Bits and pieces fill ours. Their universities propagate their knowledge. Our Taxilas and Nalandas are mere memories.
There's one more difference. The East was never inclined to exploit what they found. China's globe-girdling explorers made no political or commercial conquest. India's roaming kings and teachers deeply influenced nearly half the world, from Central Asia to China and Indonesia. Art, culture, language and philosophical thought spread, but no empire. Result: With all our civilisational heritage, we became enslaved. With their "fabricated" civilisation, the West became masters.
Who, then, has been the smarter player?
News source: http://www.newindpress.com/sunda ... Columns&rLink=0
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-25 10:50 AM
Now, I will move on to more exciting news about the recent test and Liu Gang's spirited response to those critics. I am so glad that Chinese media and Chinese scholars are finally stood up to make Liu Gang and Manzies' voice heard, at least asking the right questions and asking for scientific reasoning.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2006-3-25 11:30 AM Subject: Reply #220 shanhuang's post
A thought came to me just now.
It is entirely possible that this 1763 copy of the 1418 map was never taken seriously until recently.
The Manchus certainly didn't extol the virtues and capabilities of Ming Dynasty circumnavigators and cartographers. Remember for sure that they were a non-Han barbaric tribe from China's Northeast region whose 600,000 cavalry soldiers were able to seize Beijing (Peking) -- the nerve center of China -- from Rebel Li Zhichen in 1644.
This map now authenticated by carbon-14 dating therefore provides a dependable link between modern and Ming China.
Always remember the type of Chinese you see depicted in Hollywood movies -- with pigtails and bug teeth -- are nothing more than American caricatures of coolies or indentured laborers from Southern China, and this group can hardly represent what real Han Chinese were like in their prime days, inasmuch as whores working near Piccadilly Circus in London or Central Station in New York can hardly represent ladies from mainstream American families.
The authentication of this 1763 map is merely the first step in revolutionizing much of the basic curricula of the world's school rooms.
Our knowledge of the ancient world is imperfect at best, and a more balanced view will surely come about after the dust has settled.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-25 11:56 AM Subject: Reply #221 wchao37's post
Yes, that's a very reasonable observation that we Chinese have been feeling all the time. There is so much to tell about our own culture and our own history. This is about the map but this is far more about the map. That's why we have spent so much time and effort to document and present the facts.
___________________
To all readers:
However, as anyone who is familiar with the forum can see the moderator has taken this thread out of the flagged digest thread pool for his/her personal revege of my out-spoken questioning China Daily's using of AP, AFP article at China Daily front page. This thread was in the flagged digest thread pool for months.
Totally unprofessional and unethical.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-25 12:13 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-25 12:25 PM Subject: Liu Gang's spirited response to critics, an excellent debate/argument
Liu Gang, the Beijing lawyer and owner of a map which he has dubbed the,"1418 Map," met with the press tonight at the Bookworm in Sanlitun. Joining Liu, were "1421" author Gavin Menzies and Dr. Gunnar Thompson. Since Liu's unveiling of his map in January, there has been extensive press coverage both for and against the authenticity of his map which purports to show that China had explored the world previous to 1418.
Mr. Liu gave a spirited response to his critics at tonights press conference. In a document released at the press conference this evening, Liu attacks those critics who have seen "holes" in the map:
After going through the “holes” one by one, we should see where the “holes” really are. It turns out that the “holes” referred to by those historians and professors are actually all in their knowledge rather than in the map.
Map Talks without Sound
Liu Gang
A map showing that Chinese fleets circumnavigated and charted the globe before the Europeans was unveiled in January of this year. Since then the map has been met with skepticism from some Chinese historians. Several professors even alleged “[This] map was faked by someone in the 20th century”.
Facing the charge of being a fake, the map cannot stand up and plead not guilty. However, it can talk and prove itself as being authentic by showing its colors, landmasses, islands and annotations as depicted on the timeworn paper. The map can also tell us true history and unveil many lost ancient Chinese discoveries and technologies buried deep in the darkness of oblivion.
I. The True year of the map’s creation
The calligraphy on the map records that it was made in 1763. Some academics questioned that the map was from this date, and could be a recent forgery. We subsequently looked at various means to ascertain the right date.
The carbon dating result of Waikato University confirms that the map’s paper was most probably produced during the period from 1730-1810AD or 1640-1690AD, which is the right range for the year in which the map was created. In addition to the scientific dating result, the smell, brittleness and embrowned color of the map paper also affirm that the map is a centuries-old document.
Although no carbon dating has been carried out for the ink on the map, the colors of ink on the map can tell us when the map was painted. The red boxes on the map, using cinnabar, have faded in line with two centuries of ageing (if we put ancient cinnabar on ancient paper in the 20th century the color of cinnabar looks much richer than the red boxes on the map). The sea on the map was painted with the dark green ink commonly used during 17th to 19th century in China, and this color has faded due to centuries of oxidation. There are also many stains, traces of vermin damage and frayed edges on the map.
The map can also be dated by studying painting habits and writing style. The writing habit of the ancient Chinese is quite different from nowadays. They wrote from right to left. In the first half of 20th century the Chinese started to write from left to right. Unlike modern-day Chinese who write from left to right, the ancient Chinese put their first stroke of colored paint on the upper-right part of the paper. Nowadays, the Chinese commonly put the first stroke of color painting on the upper-left part of paper. We can clearly see on the map that the first and second strokes of dark green color painting are both on the upper-right part of the map.
During the period of the Qianlong Emperor (1711-1799AD), the Qing Court required examinees for the civil service to write test papers in a special style of calligraphy named ‘square-like calligraphy’ (“Guan Ge Ti”). Such requirement substantially influenced the fashion of people’s calligraphy in that period. In the second half of the 19th century the latter style of calligraphy went out of fashion and since then this kind of square-like calligraphy has been considered as a ponderous and dull style, and few people adopted this style of calligraphy. It is obvious that the style of calligraphy on the map is the square-like calligraphy (“Guan Ge Ti”).
In summary, the appearance of the map, the colour of its ink, the age of its paper, the way in which it is painted and the style of calligraphy used by the cartographer verify that the year in which the map was created is the year of 1763 as noted by the cartographer on the map.
(to be continued...)
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-25 12:34 PM Subject: continued...
II. Mapping Style and Characters of the Map
Professor Gong Ying-yan of the Ningbo Institution of Technology, Zhejiang University, suggests that the map’s origins lay in the European world maps of the early 17th Century. Professor Ge Jian-xiong of the History and Geography Research Center, Fudan University further claims “the shape of the map shows that it was born out of Matteo Ricci’s world map”.
Comparing the map with Matteo Ricci’s map as well as with early 17th Century European world maps, we can easily find out the substantial differences between them, particularly in their mapping style and concept.
Artists in the different historical periods painted in different styles. Mapping is the same as painting. The style, concept and layout of world maps drawn by cartographers in the 15th century are substantially different from the European Renaissance world maps (16th to 18th century). First of all, the layout of 15th century world maps aims at showing landmasses; but the layout of European Renaissance world maps aim for the best view of the globe. Secondly, 15th century world maps emphasize on the landmasses and exaggerate the proportion of landmasses on the earth’s surface; whereas later European maps aim to accurately depict both sea and land. Thirdly, the central point or horizontal central line of 15th century world maps are generally located between latitudes of 30 and 40 degrees North; whereas the horizontal central lines of the European Renaissance world maps are all at the Equator which is zero degrees. Finally, 15th century world maps don’t have a projection or longitudes/latitudes; however European Renaissance world maps have both.
The map is a copy of a world chart drawn in 1418 that shows all barbarians under heaven that recognize payment of tributes. Its mapping style, concept and layout completely tally with the other 15th century world maps, such as the de Virga world map, the Andrea Bianco world map, the Fra Mauro world map and the Juan de la Cosa world map. Compared to early 17th Century European world maps, including Matteo Ricci’s world map, the key differences of 1418 map are as follows:
(pictures unavailable, http://beijinglives.com/1418-Map ... ress-conference-2/)
In addition to having the same mapping style and concept as other 15th century world maps, the 1418 map shows many Chinese mapping characteristics and concepts of Taoism that was one of the essential religions in the Ming dynasty. Just as Matteo Ricci said: all countries in drawing their maps place their own country at the centre of the map. With the purpose of avoiding the distortion of geographical position of landmasses and drawing China close to the middle of the map, the original cartographer of the 1418 map depicted his world map with two overlapping circles, so that China was as central as possible on the map. Due to the fact that the two circles are overlapping in South East Asia, the cartographer compendiously depicted landmasses and islands in South East Asia. In order to show China near the middle of the map, the cartographer exaggerated the size of both the Shandong Peninsula and of the Bohai gulf. Furthermore, for the purpose of magnifying the proportion of Chinese land in the world and showing China with the China Eastern Sea in the shape of square, the original cartographer extended the distance between North China and South China. Drawing China in the shape of a square on a map was the mapping tradition and style in Song, Yuan and Ming dynasties. The examples include Hua Yi Tu (1136AD), Yu Ji Tu (1142AD) and Da Ming Hun Yi Tu (1398AD). In Taoism, the square shape symbolizes stability and peace. We can also distinguish many other Taoist concepts on the map. One important example is the ancient Chinese compass depicted in the upper-middle section of the map. There are seven characters above the compass meaning “The Fixed Model for Moving Six United Spaces”. In China, compasses have commonly been used for Feng Shui (the geomantic omen) of Daoism. “Six United Spaces” is a Taoist term for the Universe, (“Six United Spaces” means the unity of the spaces in north, south, east, west, upwards and downwards). The compass and “The Fixed Model for Moving Six United Spaces” indicates that the original cartographer of the 1418 map was a Taoist priest who designed and drew the map based on the principals of Chinese Feng Shui. The Chinese mapping style, concepts and traditions embodied in the 1418 map cannot be found in any world maps drawn by Europeans. Many European world maps were also drawn with two circles, however those two circles link at the Equator and do not have any overlapping part like the 1418 map (20% overlapping). Up to now, no world map has been found in the same style, concept and characteristics as the 1418 map.
Europe’s inaccurate depiction and sparse notation suggest that its origins cannot come from the European world maps of the early 17th Century, which show the contours of landmasses of Europe with greater accuracy and have more detailed notations on the European part than other areas of the world. There are many serious errors on the European part of the 1418 map. The position of the United Kingdom and Ireland are wrong, the Scandinavian Peninsula and the Black Sea are missing, and there are few notations written on this area.
III. Where are the Holes?
Professor Hou Yang-fang of the Geography Institution, Fudan University and other professors wrote several articles to dismiss the 1418 Map as a fake. They claimed that the 1418 map is full of “holes”. Where are those “holes”? And what are the causes of those “holes”?
“Holes” Drilled by a Misunderstanding of History
Mr. Jin Guo-ping and Dr. Geoff Wade at the National University of Singapore pointed out that the “holes” on the 1418 Map are the simplified Chinese character “Yu”. They claimed that the history of simplified Chinese characters is only post-1949, and that the use of the simplified Chinese character “Yu” for “-plus” instead of the full form suggests that it was faked by someone in the 20th century, educated in simplified Chinese characters.
Chinese historians should have a good knowledge of the history of Chinese characters, as it is an important part of Chinese history. Simplified Chinese characters came into existence more than ten centuries ago. Song Huizong, one of the emperors of the Song Dynasty (10th to 13th Century) used the simplified character “Wu” for “nothing” in his poetry instead of the full form. Many scholars in the Ming Dynasty and the Qing Dynasty also used simplified characters. There are many Chinese historians that specialize in the study of ancient Chinese simplified characters. For example, Mr. Yu Xin of the Ancient Books Research Institute of Zhejiang University wrote his thesis three years ago in which he analyzes the history of ancient Chinese simplified characters. The purpose of the popularization of simplified Chinese characters in the 1960’s was to unify and popularize Chinese simplified characters, which does not mean that simplified Chinese characters were not used before 1949. There is ample evidence that simplified characters were used pre-1949, and those prove that the allegations of Mr. Jin Guo-ping and Dr. Geoff Wade are incorrect.
Professor Hou Yang-fang deemed that the characters “Xiong Nu” for Hun on the 1418 Map are incorrect Chinese characters. Several historical records contradict this allegation. The inscription on an ancient jade seal dating back to the Warring States period (475-221BC) in Shanghai History Museum has the same character “Xiong Nu” for Hun. “Xiao Xu Ji”, an ancient book printed in the Song Dynasty (960-1279AD) recorded exactly the same Chinese characters of “Xiong Nu” for Hun. These historical records show that the characters “Xiong Nu” for Hun were used a long time before the 1418 Map was drawn. Professor Hou also believes that Hun did not exist in the Ming Dynasty and that the Chinese name of Hun should therefore not appear on Ming maps. “The Selection of Valuable Chinese Ancient Maps” a collection of the ancient Chinese maps records several Ming maps, including “the Illustration of Ancient and Modern Chinese and Barbarians” and “Great United Map of Imperial Ming”, both of them was printed in the late Ming Dynasty. These two maps have notes about the Chinese name Hun, and thus show a hole in Professor Hou’s knowledge about the Ming maps.
Professor Hou has some other misunderstandings about Ming maps, such as the name of “Gao Li” for Korea and the name of “Liu Qiu” for Ryukyu. He claims that Korea changed the name of “Gao Li” to “Chao Xian” in 1392 and accordingly it was impossible to name Korea as ‘Gao Li’ on the 1418 map. I believe that Professor Gong Ying-yan, who is co-author of the book “A Study of Ricci’s World Map”, will not share this view. His book includes a “General Map of Mountains, Seas and Lands” (Shanhai Yudi Quantu), which is a map recorded by several ancient books printed in the early 17th century. On the “General Map of Mountains, Seas and Lands”, the name of Korea is “Gao Li” rather than “Chao Xian”. This record shows that the Chinese cartographers in the early 17th century still used “Gao Li” for Korea. In the view of Professor Hou, the name of “Liu Qiu” should refer to Ryukyu Archipelago but the 1418 map wrongly has this name on Taiwan. In accordance with Ming history, Ryukyu in the Ming Dynasty included the islands around Ryukyu including today’s Taiwan. Therefore, a Ming map labeling Taiwan as “Ryukyu” is not incorrect. The “General Map of Mountains, Seas and Lands” also labeled Ryukyu in the same place as the 1418 map does. Taiwan was distinguished from Ryukyu in the Qing Dynasty.
(to be continued...)
Image Attachment:
Liu Gang, the barve lawyer who dares to challenge the armchair historians.jpg (2006-3-25 12:34 PM, 30.18 K) / Download count 57
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=16124
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-25 12:36 PM Subject: continued..
Professor Hou not only misunderstands Ming maps, but also some aspects of Ming history. He deems that “Nan Zhi Li” and “Bei Zhi Li” had not been named until 1421. However, the records of official “History of Ming” differ from his point of view.
Professor Mao Pei-qi and Professor Zhu Jian-qiu jointly claim that two erroneous characters “Shi Gong” were used for the title of 1418 map instead of “Zhi Gong”, and they strongly assert that in Chinese history nobody used the two characters of “Shi Gong”. These two professors will feel embarrassed if they read an ancient book “Complete Collection of TaoYan” (Taoyan Quanji). This book was printed in the Ming dynasty and used exactly the same two characters “Shi Gong”, which have the same meaning as they do on the 1418 map.
“Holes” Caused by Avoiding Taboos
A poet in the middle of the Qing Dynasty was sentenced to death just for using a single taboo word in his poem. From this case, it is evident that censorship was severe in the Qing dynasty, particularly in the Qianlong reign, in which the map was drawn.
Mo Yi Tong, the cartographer of the map, would have known the importance of avoiding taboos when he drew the map. There are two original descriptions within red boxes on the Chinese part of the map. One says “The Great Land of Imperial Dynasty”, and another says, “This Dynasty is the most important country under heaven, …” Since Mo Yi Tong retained those two original notes on his map, he knew that if the original provincial names of the Ming dynasty on the map were not changed to the names of Qing dynasty, he could be considered by the Qing court to wish to restore the Ming Empire. In order to avoid taboos and replace the administrative regions of the Ming Dynasty with the Qing administrative structure, he revised several original place names, including (but not limited to) changing “Great Ming Sea” to “Great Qing Sea”, replacing “Hu Guang” with “Hu Bei” and “Hu Nan” and adding “An Hui” beside “Nan Zhi Li”. By changing those place names, Mo Yi Tong wanted to show that “Imperial Dynasty” and “the most important country” referred to in those two original descriptions retained by him on the map means the Qing Empire, rather than the Ming Dynasty. It was very common for the cartographers in the Qing Dynasty to take necessary measures in order to avoid taboos when they copied Ming maps.
“Hole” Disclosing A Part of History Remains to be Proved
Professor Gong Ying-yan says in his article that after the Nestorian sect of Christianity in China was harshly attacked and gradually withered in the 8th century, the Chinese name “Jing” for Nestorian was not known by the Chinese until the Stele describing the Spread of the Nestorians in China was discovered in 1625. A book written in 1999 by two Chinese historians, Mr. Lin Renchun and Mr. Xu Xiaowang, reveals that during the Song dynasty (960-1279AD) and the Yuan dynasty (1279-1368AD) many Chinese in the northern part of China were the followers of Nestorius. So far, we only know the Mongolian term used during the Yuan dynasty for Nestorianism, but nobody knows what new Chinese term was used by the northern Chinese to replace “Jing” for Nestorianism in the Song and Yuan dynasties, and there is a strong possibility that the Chinese during those two dynasties, as well as in the era of Zheng He, followed the practice of the 8th century and continued to use “Jing” for Nestorianism.
Another claim by Professor Gong is also related to Nestorianism. He believes that the use of the term “Shang-di” to represent “God” began at the end of the 16th century and prior to this, the correlation between these terms did not exist. Based on this view, he claims that the term “Shang-di” should not be used on a map drawn in 1418. As a Chinese historian, he should know that some ancient books printed prior to the Qin dynasty (pre c.221BC) record the term of “Shang-di”. Lots of historical records indicate that in the 7th and 8th Centuries many Chinese terms in connection with Nestorianism originated from ancient books. For example, the Stele describing the Spread of Nestorians in China recorded more than 1,000 characters, among which more than 360 term’s origins lay in ancient books. Most importantly, we still have not drawn the final conclusion on what exact terms were used by the Chinese for “God” during the period from the 7th century to the end of the 16th century - “God” would most likely have been the key term for Nestorianism and must have been used by the Chinese followers of Nestorius. Therefore, it is subjective and arbitrary for a historian to make his judgment on the map based on a part of history that remains to be uncovered.
After going through the “holes” one by one, we should see where the “holes” really are. It turns out that the “holes” referred to by those historians and professors are actually all in their knowledge rather than in the map.
(to be continued...)
PHOTO: The courageous retired British marine officer who has a conscience to challenge the western dominated world history.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-25 11:54 PM ]
Image Attachment:
Gavin Menzies, a retired Royal Navy Commanding officer.jpg (2006-3-25 02:29 PM, 7.55 K) / Download count 48
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=16127
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-25 02:06 PM Subject: Analysis Suggests 'Ming map' Is Authentic
On Page 16 in Feb. I have posted a news that the map was carbon tested authentic. Now more mainstream media is reporting ....
__________________
A map that purports to show Chinese mariners discovered the New World before Christopher Columbus could be genuine, university scientists in New Zealand said on Friday.
The map, said to be a copy of a 1418 Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) original that has not been located, may trigger a re-evaluation of Chinese and Western maritime exploration.
Unveiled in Beijing on January 16, it attracted international attention when owner Liu Gang, a Chinese lawyer and map collector, said the 1763 copy could be proof of a theory that Chinese sailors traversed the globe long before their European counterparts.
Radio carbon dating tests showed that paper used for the copy could date back to 1763, according to Waikato University scientists.
"There's slightly over 80 percent probability that it is (dated) between 1640 and 1810," Dr Fiona Petchey said.
If the map is a genuine copy of a 1418 map, it would mean China's mariner Zheng He discovered America more than 70 years before Christopher Columbus.
Western histories record that Columbus found the New World in 1492; Portugal's Bartholomeu Diaz discovered the Cape of Good Hope in 1488; and Portuguese navigator Ferdinand Magellan set off to circumnavigate the world in 1519.
The map tested by the scientists clearly depicts the Americas, New Zealand, Australia, Africa and Europe.
Shanghai Daily: http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/811/2006/03/25/272@66438.htm
Take a good look of the remarkable ancient Chinese Map again:
The Remarkable Ancient Chinese Map
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-25 02:33 PM ]
Author: christopher_104 Time: 2006-3-25 07:21 PM Subject: Reply #1 shanhuang's post
It looks to me that sadly the map is being forgotten by the
"Academic" community. I always had the feeling that new
historical discoveries have a difficult time changing ]
the accepted version of history
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-3-25 11:42 PM Subject: continued...
Proof of 1418 Map
Several professors and historians claim that it is not logical to use the map drawn in 1763 to prove the existence of 1418 map.
In addition to the inscription on the map identifying the map as a copy made in 1763 of an original map drawn in 1418, many other description, as well as landmasses and islands on the map can prove that the cartographer of the map faithfully copied the map drawn in 1418.
Western Missionaries Never Ever Publicize Buddhism or Islam
Nine original descriptions on the map are related to religions. Among those, three notations on Asia and the eastern part of Europe are about Islam only; the one on China says “This Dynasty is the most important country under heaven, most people in this country are Buddhists, and Buddhism is the principal religion, Taoism is the second and there are also people who are Islamic”; another note on China is related to Buddhism only; the note on Korea indicates that the Koreans were Buddhist and Taoist; the note on Japan shows that the Japanese were Buddhist. There is one religious note on the American Continents, which refers to “Palacas”, an ancient religion in Peru. On the entire map there is only one original description about the European religion, and such note is about Nestorianism and is marked in Northern/Eastern Europe.
These nine original descriptions about religions show that when the original map was drawn the Chinese knew that the most popular and influential religions in the world were Buddhism and Islam and that Taoism followed. European religions were not influential at this time and their position was just like “Palacas” in South America. The message given by the map about religion in the world corresponds with medieval beliefs. In the 16th century, Roman Catholicism and Christianity began to expand outside Europe rapidly, especially to America and Asia. In the 18th century (when Mo Yi Tong copied the 1418 map) the most influential religion in the world was Roman Catholicism, which became the largest religious denomination in the American Continents.
Professor Gong claims in his article that “[The map] is in the form of a European map with annotations similar to those of the Western missionaries who came to China.” However, no single vestige of European missionaries can be traced in those religious descriptions. In history, Western missionaries never ever propagandize Buddhism or Islam.
No Reference, No Copy
Mo Yi Tong was a cartographer rather than a navigator. When Mo Yi Tong drew his map, he had to have the reference for his copying. The following analysis will confirm that Mo Yi Tong’s map originated from the 1418 map.
1) The map shows the contours of Antarctica, which was “discovered” in 1820. But the most astonishing depiction on the map about Antarctica is the Amery Ice Shelf. The first European expeditions to the Amery Ice Shelf of Antarctica took place in 1962. Accordingly, the outline of Amery Ice Shelf should only appear on maps after 1962. However, Mo Yi Tong drew the outline of Amery Ice Shelf on his map 200 years before the “first” expeditions on Amery Ice Shelf;
2) The cannibalism of Australian aborigines described on Mo Yi Tong’s map was also recorded in European history documents. John Green took the first relevant written record in 1851. How could it be possible for Mo Yi Tong to know about the cannibalism of Australian aborigines 88 years before the first European record being taken if he copied his information from European sources?
3) Soon after European colonization spread through out the American Continents in the 16th century, all documents relating to local ancient religions were destroyed, and a confidential order was given by the Europeans to ban any study of ancient religions. No information about ancient religions could be disclosed to the public until the order was abolished in the late 19th century. So where did Mo Yi Tong get his information about human sacrifice in Peru and Paracas, the ancient Peruvian religion?
There are also some other fascinating descriptions on the map, such as the descriptions of Eskimos, of cannibals of northwest Canada and of red paint on American Indians. All these details confirm the existence of the original map drawn in 1418. The 1418 map had to be the only source of the references used by Mo Yi Tong to depict those wonderful islands, annotations and the ice shelf on his map.
Would Ancient Cartographers Lie for Today's Benefit?
Professor Gong says in his article that Mo Yi Tong’s statement on the map about the original annotation is not something that can be believed, and this statement shows that “Mo Yi Tong was deceitful.” Several scholars further assert that if the map is indeed drawn in 1763 it is still possible that Mo Yi Tong forged the map or that someone forged the 1418 map, based on which the 1763 map was copied.
In China, nobody had any interest in the eunuch Zheng He until a scholar published his article about Zheng He’s voyages in 1904. The claim by Mr. Gavin Menzies about Zheng He discovering the world was raised in 2002. Why would the ancient Chinese commit perjury to support a claim raised 100 years later? “Ancient people won’t lie for today’s benefit”. This is a very strong argument made by Mr. Gavin Menzies against Professor Gong’s claim.
Would the Map Be Updated With Ancient Errors and Mapping Styles?
A scholar believes that “[the map] almost begs as if we’re looking at a 17th-century French world map that had been converted”. Professor Gong says, “[the map] reflects the results of the development of European cartography, and particularly the major achievements following European overseas explorations and the development of cartography.”
In addition to many ancient geographic names, the map is full of errors that can be found on 14th and 15th century Chinese and European world maps. For example, the map doesn’t contain the Persian Gulf, which is on neither Da Ming Hun Yi Tu (1389AD) nor Kangnido (1402AD). This error cannot be found in 17th and 18th century European maps. The fact that the map is full of ancient errors and mistakes poses a question to those scholars and professors: in converting a 17th-century French world map reflecting the development of European cartography, would it be possible for Mo Yi Tong to use the ancient errors and mistakes to update his map together with the ancient mapping style and ancient geographic names? The answer should be very simple and direct: This is not a logical assumption.
V. Historical Significance of Zheng He in World History
Mr. Gunnar Thompson, an expert on the New World Discovery says, “[the map] will revolutionize our thinking about 15th century world history.” However, so far only a piece of the 15th century world history has been questioned: who was the first to discover America? The role of Zheng He in world history is in fact far more significant than the discovery of America. The map shows by its very existence a detailed, long term and extensive survey of the world carried out by Zheng He’s seven voyages without disturbing other nations’ cultures and religion. The result of his survey did not only encourage Europeans to discover the New World but it also showed them the actual path to the New World, which would begin the process of transforming the entire world into a global village.
The historical significance of Zheng He in world history is that today’s globalization originated from Zheng He’s seven voyages.
http://beijinglives.com/1418-Map ... press-conference-2/
Christopher,
It's very true that it's going to be very difficult.....we will still present the facts...
I think so far, we have come to an important milestone that the map was authentic.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-3-26 02:23 AM ]
Author: joeching Time: 2006-3-26 04:33 PM Subject: shan, ur evolution issue caught my eye. just wander if u v seen this.
shan>Some scientists believe that the origin of modern man was an African woman who lived 200,000 years ago, and her gene wiped out all the other hominids, it sounds a bit too simple to me.
In my opinion, we still need to discover a lot before making any assertions on our human origin/evolution.
joe>here's a prof.s.lee's post on asiawind.com
Chimp genome reveals what makes us human
The question that what sets humans apart from other animals has been settled by scientists who have mapped the complete chimp genome and compared it to the human gene map.
Differences in the sequence of four chemical "letters" that spell out the genetic codes, or genomes, of chimp (Pan troglodytes) and man (Homo sapiens) could account for the very human abilities to write novels or fly to the Mars.
"As our closest relatives, they (chimpanzees) tell us special things about what it means to be a primate and, ultimately, what it means to be a human at the DNA level," Dr. Francis Collins, head of the National Human Genome Research Institute, which funded the studies, told a news conference.
The comparisons of the two genomes, published on Wednesday in the journal Nature by 67 researchers in the Chimpanzee Sequencing and Analysis Consortium, provide clear confirmation of the common and recent evolutionary origin of humans and chimpanzees, as first predicted by Charles Darwin in 1871.
Dr. Robert Waterston, one of the leaders of the international research team, from the University of Washington in Seattle and colleagues sequenced the DNA of a chimpanzee named Clint, who died last year of heart failure at the relatively young age for a chimp of 24, but two colonies of his cells have been preserved for future study.
They compared it to the human genome sequence and did a letter-by-letter comparison of the DNA base pairs -- the A, C, T and G nucleotides that make up both the human and chimp genetic codes.
Out of 3 billion base pairs that make up both the human and the chimpanzee genomes, only 40 million differ between human and chimp, they found.
"Within those 40 million differences are clearly the genetic bases of what makes us human." said Dr. Waterston.
Genes usually code for proteins, the molecules that build and operate a body, and many key differences are expected to be found in genetic code that controls where proteins are made, how and in what quantities.
The chimpanzee is only the fourth mammal to have its genome sequence completed, after humans, rats and mice, though a draft is available for the dog. Of these species, humans and chimps are by far the most similar. The differences between them are ten times fewer than those between mice and rats, and sixty times fewer than those between humans and mice.
But, added Collins, the study did not address philosophical or religious questions.
"It may very well not tell us about other aspects of humanity, such as how do we tell right and wrong," Collins said.
Source: Xinhua/agencies
Decoded chimpanzee genome shows striking similarity with human's
A comprehensive comparison of the newly deciphered chimpanzee genome sequence and that of humans shows our closest living relatives share perfect identity with 96 percent of our DNA sequence, an international research consortium reported Wednesday.
In a paper published in the Sept.1 issue of the journal Nature, the Chimpanzee Sequencing and Analysis Consortium, including 67 researchers from the United States, Israel, Italy, Germany and Spain, described the landmark study comparing the genome of the chimp with that of human. Related papers will also appear in the journal Science.
"As our closest living evolutionary relatives, chimpanzees are especially suited to teach us about ourselves," said Robert Waterston, chair of the Department of Genome Sciences of the University of Washington School of Medicine. Waterston is a senior author of the study.
"We still do not have in our hands the answer to a most fundamental question: What makes us human? But this genomic comparison dramatically narrows the search for the key biological differences between the species."
The chimp and human genomes are very similar and encode very similar proteins. The DNA sequence that can be directly compared between the two genomes is almost 99 percent identical. When DNA insertions and deletions are taken into account, humans and chimps still share 96 percent of their sequence, the researchers found.
At the protein level, 29 percent of genes code for the same amino sequences in chimps and humans. In fact, the typical human protein has accumulated just one unique change since chimps and humans diverged from a common ancestor about 6 million years ago.
They discovered that a few classes of genes are changing unusually quickly in both humans and chimpanzees compared with other mammals. These classes include genes involved in perception of sound, transmission of nerve signals, production of sperm and cellular transport of ions.
The researchers indicated the rapid evolution of these genes may have contributed to the special characteristics of primates, but further studies are needed to explore the possibilities.
The genomic analyses also showed that humans and chimps appear to have accumulated more potentially deleterious mutations in their genomes over the course of evolution than rodents.
While such mutations can cause diseases that may erode a species' overall fitness, they may have also made primates more adaptable to rapid environmental changes and enabled them to achieve unique evolutionary adaptations, the researchers said.
Despite the many similarities found between human and chimp genomes, the researchers emphasized that important differences exist between the two species.
About 35 million DNA base pairs differ between the shared portions of the two genomes, each of which, like most mammalian genomes, contains about 3 billion base pairs. In addition, there are another 5 million sites that differ because of an insertion or deletion in one of the lineages, along with a much smaller number of chromosomal rearrangements.
Most of these differences lie in what is believed to be DNA of little or no function. However, as many as 3 million of the differences may lie in crucial protein-coding genes or other functional areas of the genome.
Among these genetic changes are those that may be related to the human-specific features of walking upright on two feet, a greatly enlarged brain and complex language skills, the researchers said.
A few classes of genes appear to be evolving more rapidly in humans than in chimps. The single strongest outlier involves genes that code for transcription factors, which are molecules that regulate the activity of other genes and that play key roles in embryonic development.
A small number of other genes have undergone even more dramatic changes. More than 50 genes present in the human genome are missing or partially deleted from the chimp genome. The corresponding number of gene deletions in the human genome is not yet precisely known.
Three key genes involved in inflammation appear to be deleted in the chimp genome, possibly explaining some of the known differences between chimps and humans in respect to immune and inflammatory response.
On the other hand, humans appear to have lost the function of the caspase-12 gene, which produces an enzyme that may help protect animals against Alzheimer's disease.
The researchers also scanned the entire human genome for deviations from normal mutation patterns. Such deviations may reveal regions of "selective sweeps," which occur when a mutation arises in a population and is so advantageous that it spreads throughout the population within a few hundred generations and eventually becomes normal.
They found six regions in the human genome that have strong signatures of selective sweeps over the past 250,000 years.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-8 07:49 AM Subject: Reply #229 joeching's post
Joe,
That's an interesting topic and I wish someday we can continue our debate on it on this thread or others.
Author: joeching Time: 2006-5-8 08:37 PM Subject: shan, glad to see u back only for a moment.
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 2006-5-8 07:49
Joe,
That's an interesting topic and I wish someday we can continue our debate on it on this thread or others.
... same for ur remarkable post.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-21 07:58 AM Subject: Reply #231 joeching's post
Thanks, Joe.
Let's try to understand and explain our Chinese culture and history first. The west knows too little about them, even if they thought they know, more than often they got the facts wrong because they read about China from the western sources.
Author: christopher_104 Time: 2006-5-25 06:24 PM Subject: Reply #231 joeching and shanhuang's posts
The Chinese may have been exploring everywhere.
It would be better if the map of Africa referred to here
was also available for study.
It is no use complaining that "the west" does not
portray Chinese history and achievements correctly
when keeping this interesting African map locked away.
By the way this article blog is a Mirabilis western comment ,
a comment which perhaps should have been made by
Chinese people.
The BBC originally mentioned this Chinese map of Africa.
Now honestly did you see a mention of this interesting
Chinese African map in the Chinese media?
http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/000238.html
QUOTE:
Mirabilis.ca
Mirabilis.ca home page contact
Ancient Chinese map of Africa
Did the Chinese explore Africa a century before the Europeans did? Maybe.
Researchers are studying an ancient Chinese map, called the Da Ming Hun Yi Tu.
(Amalgamated Map of the Great Ming Empire.) It was created in 1389, and
shows the shape of Africa, the Nile River, and the Drakensberg mountains.
A replica of the map was unveiled in South Africa's parlaiment yesterday.
From iafrica.com's article, Ancient map of Africa poses questions:
The original of the map is housed in Beijing where it has remained wrapped up,
sealed and stowed behind a locked door since the fall of China's last emperor
in 1924. Fewer than 20 people have had access to it since then.
The digitised reproduction of the map on silk is almost four metres
(around 12 feet) high and more than four metres across.
Place names are written mostly in Manchu, a now virtually extinct language,
and still in need to be translated.
Related articles:
Africa's oldest map unveiled - BBC
[ Last edited by christopher_104 at 2006-5-26 03:08 PM ]
Author: joeching Time: 2006-5-25 07:17 PM Subject: shan, i post something supplementary to ur map post.
it's on what-if zheng was allowed to proceed.
i hope the moderator would see the joke on the bad guys and overlook the bigotry. but most likely that's not the chinese characteristics.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-26 06:24 PM Subject: Reply #234 joeching's post
Joe,
I know your intent and as you have seen, those who went on to your thread completely missed the point.
At the same time, I see no point to argue with them. I can let you know my view though..
Author: joeching Time: 2006-5-26 06:31 PM Subject: shan, ur post here is somethng they cant argue.
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 2006-5-26 18:24
Joe,
I know your intent and as you have seen, those who went on to your thread completely missed the point.
At the same time, I see no point to argue with them. I can let you know my view tho ...
all the warmongers needs to see that it's just a matter of whoever turning barbaric first is the real asshole.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-26 06:40 PM Subject: Reply #233 christopher_104's post
I posted the news with a map a while ago on this thread -- about China's Africa map which was even earlier than Zheng He's. Do you know? Thanks anayway.
Author: christopher_104 Time: 2006-5-26 11:02 PM Subject: Reply #238 shanhuang's post
I will take a look
Author: mencius Time: 2006-5-27 05:33 PM Subject: Shan's selective reporting
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 25-3-2006 03:50
Now, I will move on to more exciting news about the recent test and Liu Gang's spirited response to those critics. I am so glad that Chinese media and Chinese scholars are finally stood up to make Liu Gang and Manzies' voice heard, at least asking the right questions and asking for scientific reasoning.
Experts doubt authenticity of China's pre-Columbus map
"Experts have said the authenticity of a map that suggests that the Chinese discovered America before Christopher Columbus is in doubt, although the paper has been proved genuine. Liu Gang, a lawyer, art collector and owner of the map, said at a press conference Thursday that a recent carbon dating test by a lab in the University of Waikato in New Zealand showed the paper of the map was made during the imperial Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). The map is said to date back to 1763 but is also clearly marked that it is a copy of a map from 1418.
However, experts still doubts its authenticity despite the support of Gavin Menzies, author of best-seller "1421: The Year China Discover The World."
"The test can only prove that the paper is genuine, but it could be possible that someone forged the map with well preserved paper and Chinese ink," said Prof. Hou Yangfang with the Historical Geography Research Center of elite Fudan University in Shanghai. Counterfeit ancient painting and calligraphy were often made by forgers with paper and ink made at that time, Hou said. Hou also said some place names on the map contradict each other. Hunan and Hubei, both provinces in central China, did not exist in the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) and were named as Huguang.
Professor Gong Yingyan, a historian at Zhejiang University, believes the map might be a copy of European maps from the 17th century as he founded similarities between the map and some famous atlases."
Oh dear - Chinese academics expressing their doubt in one of China's leading news publications. Guess that means you can't complain it's foreign news sources making unfair criticism, can you?
Author: mencius Time: 2006-5-27 05:34 PM Subject: New website debunks Menzies and the map
http://www.1421exposed.com/
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-28 10:17 AM Subject: Reply #240 mencius's post
Get some decency, You are the one who selectively use news
This thread is about Zheng He's Map, I have asked you to provide DETAILED issues or evidence to talk about the MAP, you failed miserably and repeatedly.
I have openly said since the beginning that there are a lot debate on this map story and Menzie's theory. Nothing is surprising if some people still can't see the light when facing the hard evidence -- the carbon dating data showed the MAP is an authentic one.
Let's read the whole news from Peopl'e Daily so readers can see what PD really said despite the title and how your partially quotated and spinned. Here is the news:
Experts doubt authenticity of China's pre-Columbus map
Experts have said the authenticity of a map that suggests that the Chinese discovered America before Christopher Columbus is in doubt, although the paper has been proved genuine.
Liu Gang, a lawyer, art collector and owner of the map, said at a press conference Thursday that a recent carbon dating test by a lab in the University of Waikato in New Zealand showed the paper of the map was made during the imperial Qing Dynasty (1644-1911).
The map is said to date back to 1763 but is also clearly marked that it is a copy of a map from 1418.
However, experts still doubts its authenticity despite the support of Gavin Menzies, author of best-seller "1421: The Year China Discover The World."
"The test can only prove that the paper is genuine, but it could be possible that someone forged the map with well preserved paper and Chinese ink," said Prof. Hou Yangfang with the Historical Geography Research Center of elite Fudan University in Shanghai. (shanhuang's note: Liu Gang has refuted this professor's claim at a press conference and I have posted Liu Gang's speech on this thread before, will do it again)
Counterfeit ancient painting and calligraphy were often made by forgers with paper and ink made at that time, Hou said. (Shanhuang's note: But the NewZealand University testing data showed the map was an authentic one, see next post.)
Hou also said some place names on the map contradict each other. Hunan and Hubei, both provinces in central China, did not exist in the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) and were named as Huguang. (Liu Gang has refuted this also on his speech which I posted earlier. I will post it again next)
Professor Gong Yingyan, a historian at Zhejiang University, believes the map might be a copy of European maps from the 17th century as he founded similarities between the map and some famous atlases. (Liu Gang has refuted this also on his speech which I posted earlier. I will post it again next)
However, Liu Gang has been firmly supported by Menzies, who says that the map is genuine and was brought to the West by the ancient Chinese seafaring hero Zheng He (1371-1435).
He argues that the Chinese might even have discovered the world as early as 2,000 years ago, according to a round map in the Book of Mountains and Seas, a work of folk geography in ancient China.
Liu Gang bought the map for 4,000 yuan (about 500 U.S. dollars) from a curio stall in Shanghai in 2001. He said he was amazed by "a map originating in the 15th century representing all the continents in the world". It also contains information about Zheng He's voyages.
From 1405 to 1433 of the Ming Dynasty, Zheng He voyaged to more than 30 countries in Asia and Africa, traveling more than 100,000 km. At its peak, his fleet comprised more than 300 ships manned by approximately 27,000 sailors, a number unrivaled in the world at that time.
Some held that Zheng not only sailed to southern Asia and Africa but also sailed to America in 1421, around 87 years earlier than Columbus' discovery of the New Continent.
Menzies, a retired officer from Britain, is a champion of this hypothesis. He said the first batch of European migrants to America found there were already Chinese habitats on the Continent. In his book, Menzies asserted that the first to see the Continent were Chinese, not Europeans.
Furthermore, he asserted that the Chinese circumnavigated the globe, desalinated water and perfected the art of cartography.
Archaeologist Gunnar Thompson of the U.S. University of Hawaii said the Chinese might even have arrived in America during the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368).
Menzies is not a professional researcher and his studies have been labeled as "pseudo-science" by some Western and Chinese scholars but he has won support from other Chinese scholars for his academic efforts.
What we see here is that Chinese news paper People's Daily has been presenting both sides stories, nothing is wrong, and it didn't say the Map is not authetic at all.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-5-28 11:18 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-28 10:29 AM Subject: Reply #241 mencius's posts
Let me remind you -- for someone like you who called Einstein a "mathematician" while I repeatedly reminded you that he is a physicist on this thread, you need to earn your credibility to participate on this thread. Based upon your poor record here and your consistent bad behavior in this forum you don't have enough intelligence to talk on this thread.
What you, out of your frustration, are trying to do here is to use some rubbish sites to spin. I can easily throw them into garbage bin.
The site you posted above is useless to begin with. No one with a good scholarly reputation would create a site imitating Galvine Menzies' site to argue on a scientific bases. That site was created by 4 or 5 bitter losers including the laughable Singaporian "scholar" Geoff Wade. The map owner Liu Gang has refuted him thoroughly.
Readers can check out Menzie's site: http://www.1421.tv/ to see how they imitated Menzie's site. Pathetic.
And also see news that reported carbon dating data showed that the map was PROVEN authentic:
A map that purports to show Chinese mariners discovered the New World before Christopher Columbus could be genuine, university scientists in New Zealand said on Friday.
The map, said to be a copy of a 1418 Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) original that has not been located, may trigger a re-evaluation of Chinese and Western maritime exploration.
Unveiled in Beijing on January 16, it attracted international attention when owner Liu Gang, a Chinese lawyer and map collector, said the 1763 copy could be proof of a theory that Chinese sailors traversed the globe long before their European counterparts.
Radio carbon dating tests showed that paper used for the copy could date back to 1763, according to Waikato University scientists.
"There's slightly over 80 percent probability that it is (dated) between 1640 and 1810," Dr Fiona Petchey said.
If the map is a genuine copy of a 1418 map, it would mean China's mariner Zheng He discovered America more than 70 years before Christopher Columbus.
Western histories record that Columbus found the New World in 1492; Portugal's Bartholomeu Diaz discovered the Cape of Good Hope in 1488; and Portuguese navigator Ferdinand Magellan set off to circumnavigate the world in 1519.
The map tested by the scientists clearly depicts the Americas, New Zealand, Australia, Africa and Europe.
Shanghai Daily: http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/811/2006/03/25/272@66438.htm
And what's even more laughable is that the site quoted in Mencius' posts showed little intelligence and very poor taste. As sensational as the "news" is, we wonder why why no reputable international news site would report or quote from them? Your so called "news" was created in a Morgantown news paper called Dominion Post. Do a Google search we found The Dominion Post -- Morgantown's daily newspaper.
Here is a Google search result about The Dominion Post:
http://www.google.com/search?hl= ... ;btnG=Google+Search
Very shabby!! And no proven reputation. If the so called news is true, I am waiting here for you to get The Economist which first broke out the Liu Gang Map story to publish the news, yes, I am waiting!
So, don't sell your garbage unless you find any reputable international news are reporting your sensational lies.
It takes only a few bucks to get some lies published on such so called town "news paper". It's a newspaper one can get a dozen for a dim. I wouldn't be surprised that the author was lying about Galvin Menzies while Menzie is far away in a different country, not there to defend himself. Anyone with a little intelligence would also ask why the news said the university refuses to let Menzie to use the data? No one would believe a reputable institution would do such thing.
These obviously showed the "news" is fishy, as fishy as your bikiny.
Please note that I have posted all the detailed evidence I posted here and in the next post on Page 23 of this thread, mencius simply chose not to read them. He is not here to debate on a factual or scientific bases, he just wants to dump his garbage out of his frustration for having no truth and no credibility.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-5-28 11:39 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-29 03:02 AM Subject: Reply #245 mencius's post
The real idiot would ignore all the sicentific evidence presented by the DATA and keep refusingto accept it as the so called scholar. Let alone there are very FEW idiots in this world that doesn't know Einstine is a PHYSICIST.
Here is what Google told us what's The Dominion Post, and check out the most visited one is from Morgantwon.
_______
The Dominion PostMorgantown's daily newspaper.
www.dominionpost.com/ - Similar pages
www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/dominionpost/0,,0a6000,00.htmlSimilar pages
Dominion :: Digital Post & New Media ::Specializes in nonlinear editing, DVD authoring and audio design for corporate and broadcast clients....
www.dominionpost.net/ - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
The Dominion Post : a division of Fairfax MediaThe Dominion Post is best known as the publisher of the second-largest daily newspaper in the country, The Dominion Post, and for its regional free weekly, ...
www.fairfaxnz.co.nz/businesses/dompost.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
East by West FerryCruise the harbour with up to 9 scheduled return ferry sailings daily between Wellington city and...
www.eastbywest.co.nz/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages
Newszone | Home | Fairfax NIE (Newspapers in Education)Click here and have a copy of Tuesday's Dominion Post ready. ... The Dominion Post Building, PO Box 3740, 40 Boulcott St, Wellington, New Zealand ...
dominionpost.newszone.co.nz/ - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?RQT=318&pmid=52721Similar pages
Jobs, job, employment, vacancies & work in NZ - search New Zealand ...... South Waikato News, Southland Times, Sunday Star-Times, The Dominion Post, The Manawatu Standard, The Press (Christchurch), The Taranaki Daily News ...
jobstuff.co.nz/ - 36k - Cached - Similar pages
Dominion Post - newspaper in Wellington, New Zealand covering ...Dominion Post. Newspaper in Wellington, New Zealand covering Wellington local news. At Mondo Times, the worldwide media guide with over 15000 media outlets.
www.mondotimes.com/1/world/nz/214/4696/11870 - 29k - Cached - Similar pages
The Dominion Post: local, national & world news from Wellington's ...The Dominion Post: Get the latest local, national and world news from Wellington's daily newspaper.
www.converge.org.nz/pma/hs091205.htm - Similar pages
________________
Even if The Dominion Post is a so called "2nd national newspaper" as you claimed the Google search told us that its circulation is even smaller than a MorganTown news paper. Go figure out yourself. That's very laughable!
I am waiting for you to deliver the so called "news" from an internationally reputable newspaper such as The Economist or equal. Don't be so pathetically holding up a piece of junk news that no one even care about. It's better if you can deliever the same news from your beloved BBC or CNN.
You are shameless putting your own words into my mouth. Where did I say People's Daily lied? Shame on you, a liar. I have said that People's Daily only presented both side stories but Peope's Daily clearly said the DATA is there. Anyone with commmon sense would understand - The carbon data proved the map is authentic. Shame on you again.
QUOTE:
"The test can only prove that the paper is genuine, but it could be possible that someone forged the map with well preserved paper and Chinese ink," said Prof. Hou Yangfang"
Let me tell you this: the whole international scientific community have accepted the carbon dating data which said the MAP is authetic.
Your professor can maintain whatever he thinks but that only showed his own pathetic unscientific view, a view not generally accepted by the international community. As a matter of fact the professor knws that he made a too loud opinion before the carbon dating data came out. When a Chinese journalist asked him what if the data showed the map would be genuine and he unpreparedly said that it would be good if it's authetic in Chinese. Hasn't Liu Gang refuted many of his 'opinions' as shown in my last post? That also proved this professor's 'scholar level'. I see you have nothing to say about it.
QUOTE:
" Professor Gong Yingyan, a historian at Zhejiang University, believes the map might be a copy of European maps from the 17th century as he founded similarities between the map and some famous atlases."
Let me tell you - this is OLD news. And I have rebunked it long time ago on this thread by showing European maps made the similar mistake as showed on the Chinese map and European maps were made LATER than the Chinese map. Shame on you by ignoring all the evidence I have long ago presented here.
Now I am waiting for YOU to show me an european MAP that you think the chinese map copied from. As I said DELIVER DETAILED evidence rather than holding on a few pathetic professors' opinion who let their pride blind their eyes.
Once again:
1) Show me the prrof that The Economist or other internationally reputable news source has published or quoted the so called news you quoted earlier. Other wise, get out of my thread. You have no credibility.
2) Show me a detailed map that you believe that the Chinese map copied from. Otherwise go and get out and get lost from my thread.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-5-29 04:21 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-29 04:33 AM
On Page 16, 2006-2-19 09:38 I have informed that the map was tested authentic!
Here is the post, let me repost it. The reason I do this is because now both western and Chinese media are reporting that the ancient map are tested AUTHENTIC.
Civilisation: The Slaves aand Masters Game
Saturday February 11 2006 17:56 IST
T J S George
Obsessed with politics, we don't notice what is happening to civilisation. More is happening to it than the Islamic upheaval against European blasphemy. That is essentially political.
The civilisational world is all about the advancement of knowledge and discoveries. As it happens, in this world too, Western civilisation is currently feeling a bit rattled. They have spent centuries establishing that all knowledge, all break-throughs, all progress began in the Caucasian West. Now they are being forced to admit that yet another of their conclusions is unsustainable. Columbus did not "discover" America. Zheng He did.
Admiral Zheng's Chinese fleets sailed the world between 1405 and 1435, more than half a century before Columbus saw the "New World" (1492) or Bartolomeu Dias the Cape of Good Hope (1488). Zheng's accounts appeared in a book in 1418. Now a navigator's map of the world made around 1418 and copied in 1763 has been found and tested as authentic. It shows Africa, Europe, the Americas and of course Asia fairly accurately. Australia is there too, but placed off course. Experts believe this could well be the first ever map of the world. Clearly Chinese explorers were circumnavigating the globe long before Ferdinand Magellan (the "discoverer" of the Philippines) thought of it in 1519. The Chinese map recognised the world as spherical _ 50 years before Copernicus was born to propound the theory that the earth was a sphere revolving round an axis; almost 200 years later the Roman Catholic Church would still be busy condemning Galileo for the "heresy" of supporting Copernicus.
Which shows that the West was pretty late in catching up with the East. Centuries late. That did not stop them from claiming overall fatherhood. As late as the 17th Century, they taught that human civilisation had its roots in the Caucuses and flowered in Greece. This was the defining "Aryan model" buttressed by the argument that Indo-European languages were the bedrock of modern civilsation. Greece thus became the fount of all the philosophies, all the sciences known to us today.
The arguments have been blown to bits by eminent scholars, but these scholars remain on the periphery. Martin Bernal (author of the famous "Black Athena" which exposed "The Fabrication of Ancient Greece") was sidelined by the West. George Gheverghese Joseph has not been rubbished perhaps because his "The Crest of The Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics" is sharply focussed and impossible to refute.
Joseph's seminal work shows that the earliest numerical patterns were developed in the Swaziland region around 35,000 BC, that the most practical system of number notation was devised by the Mayans of Central America around 400 BC. In the four great river valley civilisations of the ancient world _ Egypt, Mesopotamia, India and China _ mathematics was a fully developed science.
But there was one huge difference between the West and the East. They recorded and chronicled everything, we didn't. So, researchable knowledge fills their ledger. Bits and pieces fill ours. Their universities propagate their knowledge. Our Taxilas and Nalandas are mere memories.
There's one more difference. The East was never inclined to exploit what they found. China's globe-girdling explorers made no political or commercial conquest. India's roaming kings and teachers deeply influenced nearly half the world, from Central Asia to China and Indonesia. Art, culture, language and philosophical thought spread, but no empire. Result: With all our civilisational heritage, we became enslaved. With their "fabricated" civilisation, the West became masters.
Who, then, has been the smarter player?
News source: http://www.newindpress.com/sunda ... Columns&rLink=0
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-6-14 04:42 PM ]
Image Attachment:
Zheng He.jpg (2006-5-29 05:02 AM, 72.03 K) / Download count 38
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=20700
Author: mencius Time: 2006-5-29 04:33 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 28-5-2006 21:31
No serious newspaper has bought your so called "news" that's why it's unqualified.
New Zealand newspapers aren't qualified to talk about news in New Zealand? How do you come to that conclusion?
QUOTE:
Major international newspaper have reported the carbon dating data is valid and the map is Authentic.
Which ones have reported that the map is authentic? I think I came across some that said it might be.
Author: mencius Time: 2006-5-29 04:36 AM Subject: Newindpress?
Sorry, what is "newindpress"? You're saying the Dominion Post is not valid, but some online publication is? I've never heard of it. It's based in India, so how would they know the test results before anyone else (in February)? The local Waikato newspaper (Waikato Times) didn't report on it until late March 2006.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/25/content_4343594.htm
WELLINGTON, March 25 (Xinhua)
"Waikato Times reported Saturday"
If Xinhua and others knew about the test results in February, why would they wait until late March to run the story?! And then why would they quote the Waikato Times unlike that strange Indian website? Can you explain this disparity? Obviously not..........
[ Last edited by mencius at 2006-5-28 09:42 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-29 04:42 AM
Map shows Chinese discovered New World
Wellington
March 25, 2006 - 12:11AM
A map purporting to show Chinese mariners discovered the New World before Christopher Columbus could be genuine, university scientists in New Zealand said today.
The map, said to be a copy of a 1418 Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) original which has not been located, has the potential to trigger a re-evaluation of Chinese and western maritime exploration.
Unveiled in Beijing on January 16, it attracted international attention when owner, Liu Gang, a Chinese lawyer and map collector, said the 1763 copy could be proof of a theory Chinese sailors traversed the globe long before their European counterparts.
Radio carbon dating tests showed paper used for the copy could date back to 1763, Waikato University radio carbon dating scientists said.
"There's slightly over 80 per cent probability that it is (dated) between 1640 and 1810," Dr Fiona Petchey said.
If the map is a genuine copy of a 1418 map, it would mean China's Admiral Zheng He discovered America more than 70 years before Christopher Columbus.
Western histories record that Columbus found the New World in
1492; Portugal's Bartholomeu Diaz discovered the Cape of Good Hope in 1488; and Portuguese navigator Ferdinand Magellan set off to circumnavigate the world in 1519.
The map tested by the scientists clearly depicts the Americas, New Zealand, Australia, Africa and Europe.
One critic, Geoff Wade, senior research fellow at the National University of Singapore, told the China Daily newspaper the map "was a litany of errors, many simplistic".
"I am convinced that this map is a 21st-century fake. It was certainly produced by someone educated in simplified characters, meaning since the founding of the People's Republic of China (1949)," he said.
AP
How powerless the so called Geoff Wade is in front of the scientific data, and in fact during a debate with Liu Gang he was so frucstrated such that he resort to bad language.
Once again:
1) Show me the proof that The Economist or other internationally reputable news source has published or quoted the so called news you quoted earlier. Other wise, get out of my thread. You have no credibility.
2) Show me a detailed map that you believe that the Chinese map copied from. Otherwise go and get out and get lost from my thread.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-5-29 05:04 AM ]
Image Attachment:
zheng-he world map.jpg (2006-5-29 05:04 AM, 13.9 K) / Download count 43
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=20701
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-29 04:49 AM Subject: Reply to mencius's post
QUOTE:
New Zealand newspapers aren't qualified to talk about news in New Zealand? How do you come to that conclusion?
These are YOUR words not mine. I have never had the "conclusion" you put into my mouth. You know you are a liar.
Your New Zealand newspaper, not s please, is not just talk about news in New Zealand, according to your own words, they are talking about Galvin Menzie's theory and Menzie is a British and his work is about China's early sea explorartion history. And that's why I asked you repeatedly to show other newspapers with international reputation reporting the same thing and you failed because you can't find any one to back up the so called "news" you threw here.
QUOTE:
Which ones have reported that the map is authentic? I think I came across some that said it might be.
Read my last post again, it's an AP news, it said that Map shows Chinese discovered New World and I have more such international news sources said the same thing, yet you can all conveniently ignore them.
until now, you simply failed every time to answer my questions!
QUOTE:
...You're saying the Dominion Post is not valid, but some online publication is? I've never heard of it. It's based in India, so how would they know the test results before anyone else (in February)? The local Waikato newspaper (Waikato Times) didn't report on it until late March 2006.
So? Both Waikato and Xinhua reported the same news as the Indian news that the test data showed that the MAP is authentic if you understand what 80% of data meant. Why there is a month difference? That just said the India news had early access to the testing result probably when the lab was repeating or verify the process or things like this. Because it's an very important test that the world is watching.
Don't forget that most international papers predicted that the test result should be out in early Feb. Why didn't you ask this question at all? The preliminary data obviously available long before the final official report.
This is something very easy to understand for those who understand the scientific testing process, and unfortuantely it's not your type.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-6-14 05:17 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-29 05:12 AM Subject: Reply #259 mencius's post
Shame on you for partially quoting again
Added notes: several of mencius' posts have been deleted by the mod.
Yeah, the sour grapes first said he was sure the map was a fake then only found himself looked like a fool when the scientifc DATA showed the map was genuine, so they started to twist by saying only the paper was tested, not the ink.
But can you or your "professor" tell me one non-destructive scientific method that can be used to test the ink without damaging the map? Did the west test Columbus' map, paper and ink?
Yeah, you can go and ask for an ink testing, it's only that the world scientific community wouldn't take you or the so called scholar seriously any more. What's new?
By the way, let me tell you that you can say the machine is not tested too in case the ink is tested authetic. That would be another pathetic excuse.
Once again please answer my questions:
1) Show me the proof that The Economist or other internationally reputable news source has published or quoted the so called news you quoted earlier saying Menzies said this and that. Otherwise, get out of my thread. You have no credibility.
2) Show me a detailed map that you believe the Chinese map copied from. Otherwise get out and get lost from my thread.
3) Show me one non-destructive scientific method that can be used to test the ink without damaging the map. Did the west test Columbus' map, paper and ink?
Until you can deliver the subtance, you can dance toplessly here by yourself. And keep bumping my thread.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-6-14 05:43 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-5-29 05:12 AM
Tests map out discovery claim
www.chinaview.cn 2006-03-24 08:45:01
BEIJING, March 24 -- Carbon dating has shown that a controversial map drawn in 1763 by a Chinese cartographer is real, and not a modern forgery, it was claimed Thursday. The map could have an important influence on a re-evaluation of Chinese and Western maritime exploration.
The map was originally unveiled in Beijing on January 16, attracting interest from across the globe. The owner, Liu Gang, a Chinese lawyer and map collector, said at the time that it was an authentic 1763 copy of a 1418 Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) original. The original map has not been found, but if real, the 1763 copy could be proof that it existed. If so, it gives credence to the theory that Chinese sailors traversed the globe long before their European counterparts.
The carbon dating on the 1763 map's paper, undertaken by University of Waikato in New Zealand, showed that the most likely probability of a date, 42.4 per cent, was between 1730 and 1810. The second most likely result was between 1640 and 1690.
Speaking at a press conference yesterday evening, Liu said: "The period matches the date written by the cartographer, 1763. I believe that the carbon dating is very useful to confirm the paper of the map is the right year."
Gunnar Thompson, a US expert of ancient maps and early explorers, was also present at the press conference, saying: "This is a copy of the oldest map in the world made according to scientific standards. There is no question of this map's authenticity or accuracy."
"This map can't stand alone, but put in the context of history, there were huge exploration efforts made during previous dynasties such maps must have existed."
Gavin Menzies, author of "1421, The Year China Discovered The World," a controversial book published in 2003 outlining the voyages of Zheng He during the time of Emperor Zhu Di of the Ming Dynasty, including the discovery of America 70 years before Christopher Columbus in 1492, said that historical evidence pointed to the fact that this was a copy of a 1418 original.
However, there remain questions over the authenticity of Liu's map. The carbon dating was only for the paper, not for the ink, or for the time the ink was applied. "Experts cannot identify in which period the ink was put on the map," Liu admitted.
Other experts are less convinced. Geoff Wade, senior research fellow at the National University of Singapore, told China Daily that the map "was a litany of errors, many simplistic." For example, "The representation of China is poor. Why should Chinese cartographers have represented the lands with which they were so familiar so poorly?"
"I am convinced that this map is a 21st-century fake. It was certainly produced by someone educated in simplified characters, meaning since the founding of the People's Republic of China, and the purpose of the map is to support the Menzies thesis, so it was produced within the last four years."
(Source: China Daily)
You have shamed yourself again, British bikini queen, for partial quoting without giving the whole original. 
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-5-29 05:24 AM ]
Image Attachment:
zheng-he world map.jpg (2006-5-29 05:24 AM, 13.9 K) / Download count 48
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=20706
Author: emucentral Time: 2006-5-29 06:32 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by shanhuang at 2006-5-29 07:12
BEIJING, March 24 -- Carbon dating has shown that a co ...
Shan,
I have been avoiding getting involved in this thread for a while, but I feel that something needs to be said.
Your recent news quotes do not definitively support your case. There is a difference between carbon dating the medium, on which a message appears, and the message which appears there.
I believe that's part of Mencius' point, while there is some supporting evidence, there is no absolute evidence that the whole document is genuine.
Your convenient ignoring of your own errors, (like your utter confusion over New Zealand newspapers) and your nitpicking over Mencius's postings, does nothing for your credibility.
As to the authenticity of Gavin Menzies claims, well I believe I am possibly more open to the idea than Mencius, but also far more open to evidence to the contrary, than you are.
You appear to have some agenda, to this as a sign of some Chinese "superiority" over the west.
Just remember, a British Naval officer has made these claims, that a Chinese admiral achieved so much.
A Chinese Admiral whose ships and records were destroyed, and whose supposed achievements (according to Menzies) have also been denied by some contemporary Chinese scholars (as reported some months ago in CD). Whatever Zheng He may have achieved, it appears to have been denied or ignored by his countrymen.
The lack of exploitation of Zheng He's alleged discoveries is also quoted by some as an example of Chinese benign intent to the rest of the world. That's simply wrong.
It is a sign of both the ignorance and the attitude of superiority held by the rulers of the day.
Please, Shan, get back to the point. It does not do China a disservice by dispassionately looking at evidence for and against Menzies claims, like those old maps.
JB
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-6-1 03:00 PM Subject: Reply #259 emucentral's post
You and I have been in this forum for a long time and we know each other. You once asked me to read British Encyclopedia in talking about Opium War, that said very well where you stand despite you tried to portray yourself as neutral. You are NOT.
My quote dose support my case unless you can show me detailed examples, don't talk empty.
Yes, there is a "difference between carbon dating the medium, on which a message appears, and the message which appears there." But can you name one scientific method that is non-destructive and can be used to test the ink without damaging the content of the map? I have said in above post that you can ask for an ink test but the majority of the world historical and scientific community won't take you seriously unless you have evidence showing that this map is not genuine.
For the western colonial mindset, they could say the machine used to test the paper and the ink (if ever gets tested) is not tested too. You can always find an excuse, but anyone with a true scientific sense would know where to stop. Unfortunately none of you have the sense here.
The fact is that you convinently ignored your problem that The Dominion Post is the only newspaper reported the so called news alledging Menzies said this and that, why can't you or mencius give us any other sources to back up the so called news? It's a shame. And the fact is that the readership of The Dominion Post is even smaller than a small town news paper evidenced by Google search result -- it sufficiently showed how pathetic your argument was, and how biased you are -- in order to discredit the scientifically tested authetic Chinese map, you have put yourself in an awkward position.
Here is what Google told us what's The Dominion Post, and check out the most visited one is from Morgantwon.
_______
The Dominion PostMorgantown's daily newspaper.
www.dominionpost.com/ - Similar pages
www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/dominionpost/0,,0a6000,00.htmlSimilar pages
Dominion :: Digital Post & New Media ::Specializes in nonlinear editing, DVD authoring and audio design for corporate and broadcast clients....
www.dominionpost.net/ - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
The Dominion Post : a division of Fairfax MediaThe Dominion Post is best known as the publisher of the second-largest daily newspaper in the country, The Dominion Post, and for its regional free weekly, ...
www.fairfaxnz.co.nz/businesses/dompost.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
East by West FerryCruise the harbour with up to 9 scheduled return ferry sailings daily between Wellington city and...
www.eastbywest.co.nz/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages
Newszone | Home | Fairfax NIE (Newspapers in Education)Click here and have a copy of Tuesday's Dominion Post ready. ... The Dominion Post Building, PO Box 3740, 40 Boulcott St, Wellington, New Zealand ...
dominionpost.newszone.co.nz/ - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?RQT=318&pmid=52721Similar pages
Jobs, job, employment, vacancies & work in NZ - search New Zealand ...... South Waikato News, Southland Times, Sunday Star-Times, The Dominion Post, The Manawatu Standard, The Press (Christchurch), The Taranaki Daily News ...
jobstuff.co.nz/ - 36k - Cached - Similar pages
Dominion Post - newspaper in Wellington, New Zealand covering ...Dominion Post. Newspaper in Wellington, New Zealand covering Wellington local news. At Mondo Times, the worldwide media guide with over 15000 media outlets.
www.mondotimes.com/1/world/nz/214/4696/11870 - 29k - Cached - Similar pages
The Dominion Post: local, national & world news from Wellington's ...The Dominion Post: Get the latest local, national and world news from Wellington's daily newspaper.
www.converge.org.nz/pma/hs091205.htm - Similar pages
________________
Once again, Even if The Dominion Post is a so called "2nd national newspaper" as you claimed the Google search told us that its circulation is even smaller than a MorganTown news paper. Go figure out yourself. That's very laughable!
I am waiting for you to deliver the so called "news" from an internationally reputable newspaper such as The Economist or equal. Don't be so pathetically holding up a piece of junk news that no one even care about. It's better if you can deliever the same news from your beloved BBC or CNN.
It doesn't matter how you claim you are open, it's a matter of scietific analysis. I am not interested in empty words. I am not interested in someone like the British bikini Queen who had no basic scientific sense, he has repeated shamed himself by partially quoting news and relying on some unscientific scholars who have closed mind.
The issue here is that you have some agenda. Your way of arguing is a sign of colonial "superiority" over the east as you repeatedly showed in this forum.
I don't need you to remind me that a British Naval officer has made these claims, that a Chinese admiral achieved so much. I have said many times on this thread Menzies is a great humanbeing. He shares nothing with you. Just let me also remind you - don't forget that many of British bikini queen's claims are in fact based on Chinese scholars' argument. Don't use Menzie so convieniently.
"A Chinese Admiral whose ships and records were destroyed, and whose supposed achievements (according to Menzies) have also been denied by some contemporary Chinese scholars (as reported some months ago in CD). Whatever Zheng He may have achieved, it appears to have been denied or ignored by his countrymen."
That's a very unscientific typical empty argument of you. Here I am talking about the map. The map showed how much Chinese Zheng He had done. The fact is that there are many evidence showing up that support the fact that Admiral Zheng He has done far more than previously reported and there are many people around the world and more and more Chinese scholars are standing up to support Menzies.
The fact is that Zheng He has explored the world long before the west, Columbus or others. And I can see you are bitter.
And the fact is that we Chinese didn't exploit the world. However, this has become a weak sign in the colonialist eyes like you. In your western culture if you can exploit you must exploit even if it meant killing and genocide, otherwise, it's called "ignorance".
Get back to the basic scientific point. It does not do the west a disservice by dispassionately looking at evidence for and against Menzies claims, if only the west can re-exam their colonial past and the still going stong superiority attitude.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-6-2 01:58 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-6-1 03:05 PM Subject: Reply #259 emucentral's post
On Page 16, 2006-2-19 09:38 I have informed that the map was tested authentic! It's time for those colonialists to re-exam their rotten attitude towards the east especially Chinese achievement
Here is the post, let me repost it. The reason I do this is because now both western and Chinese media are reporting that the ancient map are tested AUTHENTIC.
Civilisation: The Slaves aand Masters Game
Saturday February 11 2006 17:56 IST
T J S George
Obsessed with politics, we don't notice what is happening to civilisation. More is happening to it than the Islamic upheaval against European blasphemy. That is essentially political.
The civilisational world is all about the advancement of knowledge and discoveries. As it happens, in this world too, Western civilisation is currently feeling a bit rattled. They have spent centuries establishing that all knowledge, all break-throughs, all progress began in the Caucasian West. Now they are being forced to admit that yet another of their conclusions is unsustainable. Columbus did not "discover" America. Zheng He did.
Admiral Zheng's Chinese fleets sailed the world between 1405 and 1435, more than half a century before Columbus saw the "New World" (1492) or Bartolomeu Dias the Cape of Good Hope (1488). Zheng's accounts appeared in a book in 1418. Now a navigator's map of the world made around 1418 and copied in 1763 has been found and tested as authentic. It shows Africa, Europe, the Americas and of course Asia fairly accurately. Australia is there too, but placed off course. Experts believe this could well be the first ever map of the world. Clearly Chinese explorers were circumnavigating the globe long before Ferdinand Magellan (the "discoverer" of the Philippines) thought of it in 1519. The Chinese map recognised the world as spherical _ 50 years before Copernicus was born to propound the theory that the earth was a sphere revolving round an axis; almost 200 years later the Roman Catholic Church would still be busy condemning Galileo for the "heresy" of supporting Copernicus.
Which shows that the West was pretty late in catching up with the East. Centuries late. That did not stop them from claiming overall fatherhood. As late as the 17th Century, they taught that human civilisation had its roots in the Caucuses and flowered in Greece. This was the defining "Aryan model" buttressed by the argument that Indo-European languages were the bedrock of modern civilsation. Greece thus became the fount of all the philosophies, all the sciences known to us today.
The arguments have been blown to bits by eminent scholars, but these scholars remain on the periphery. Martin Bernal (author of the famous "Black Athena" which exposed "The Fabrication of Ancient Greece") was sidelined by the West. George Gheverghese Joseph has not been rubbished perhaps because his "The Crest of The Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics" is sharply focussed and impossible to refute.
Joseph's seminal work shows that the earliest numerical patterns were developed in the Swaziland region around 35,000 BC, that the most practical system of number notation was devised by the Mayans of Central America around 400 BC. In the four great river valley civilisations of the ancient world _ Egypt, Mesopotamia, India and China _ mathematics was a fully developed science.
But there was one huge difference between the West and the East. They recorded and chronicled everything, we didn't. So, researchable knowledge fills their ledger. Bits and pieces fill ours. Their universities propagate their knowledge. Our Taxilas and Nalandas are mere memories.
There's one more difference. The East was never inclined to exploit what they found. China's globe-girdling explorers made no political or commercial conquest. India's roaming kings and teachers deeply influenced nearly half the world, from Central Asia to China and Indonesia. Art, culture, language and philosophical thought spread, but no empire. Result: With all our civilisational heritage, we became enslaved. With their "fabricated" civilisation, the West became masters.
Who, then, has been the smarter player?
News source: http://www.newindpress.com/sunda ... Columns&rLink=0
Image Attachment:
Zheng He.jpg (2006-6-1 03:06 PM, 72.03 K) / Download count 39
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=20899
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-6-1 03:08 PM Subject: Scientific Data speaks louder
Map shows Chinese discovered New World
Wellington
March 25, 2006 - 12:11AM
A map purporting to show Chinese mariners discovered the New World before Christopher Columbus could be genuine, university scientists in New Zealand said today.
The map, said to be a copy of a 1418 Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) original which has not been located, has the potential to trigger a re-evaluation of Chinese and western maritime exploration.
Unveiled in Beijing on January 16, it attracted international attention when owner, Liu Gang, a Chinese lawyer and map collector, said the 1763 copy could be proof of a theory Chinese sailors traversed the globe long before their European counterparts.
Radio carbon dating tests showed paper used for the copy could date back to 1763, Waikato University radio carbon dating scientists said.
"There's slightly over 80 per cent probability that it is (dated) between 1640 and 1810," Dr Fiona Petchey said.
If the map is a genuine copy of a 1418 map, it would mean China's Admiral Zheng He discovered America more than 70 years before Christopher Columbus.
Western histories record that Columbus found the New World in
1492; Portugal's Bartholomeu Diaz discovered the Cape of Good Hope in 1488; and Portuguese navigator Ferdinand Magellan set off to circumnavigate the world in 1519.
The map tested by the scientists clearly depicts the Americas, New Zealand, Australia, Africa and Europe.
One critic, Geoff Wade, senior research fellow at the National University of Singapore, told the China Daily newspaper the map "was a litany of errors, many simplistic".
"I am convinced that this map is a 21st-century fake. It was certainly produced by someone educated in simplified characters, meaning since the founding of the People's Republic of China (1949)," he said.
AP
How powerless the so called Geoff Wade is in front of the scientific data, and in fact during a debate with Liu Gang he was so frucstrated such that he resort to bad language.
Once again:
1) Show me the proof that The Economist or other internationally reputable news source has published or quoted the so called news you quoted earlier. Other wise, get out of my thread. You have no credibility.
2) Show me a detailed map that you believe that the Chinese map copied from. Otherwise go and get out and get lost from my thread.
Image Attachment:
zheng-he world map.jpg (2006-6-1 03:08 PM, 13.9 K) / Download count 46
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=20900
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-6-1 03:16 PM Subject: Sharing this post again with readers
Thank you so much again for the poem, braveworld. It's so moving and beautiful. Menzies is brave. I can see how much pressure he bears.
The few Chinese scholars who refused to admit their mistakes should have the courage to take the task as a responsibility not for themselves but for the people, for the spirit of truth.
"Get to the bottom of it, to find the truth,
if it's a forgery, we'll refute,
if it's true, let's reflect why we've been so wrong.
Wake up the armchair and archives historians,
make all these, if it's true, known to our children.
Our quest is not about our ego,
The facts matter our people.
Missing the greatest achievements our ancestors did,
we will have the same mistakes in our future bid.
For all Chinese, 1421 is not a bandwagon,
it's a shock treatment, a phenomenen.
Do our best, learn our past.
We need to be a child again, I say:
Fearless, no worry of losing face.
We fall, we crawl,
we explore, we stand tall.
Great people still fail,
but great people prevail"
一种精神，一种文化，一种博大，一种情怀，一种自强不息的探索，一份对历史的责任感
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-6-1 03:17 PM ]
Image Attachment:
Zhenh He Fleet.jpg (2006-6-1 03:17 PM, 32.71 K) / Download count 41
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=20903
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-8-1 08:59 AM Subject: Great News!
郑和与美洲之谜——美洲东海岸出土“宣德金牌”
(Please read English translation in post #258 if you can't read Chinese)
Siu-Leung Lee, PhD 李兆良, 发表于 2006-7-26 14:58:00
在美国东海岸几百哩内陆，一个人口稀少的小镇，出土了一块毫不显眼的，直径7厘米的黄铜圆牌，设计非常简单，中间一个小方框凸铸着“大明宣德委锡”六个字。古文“锡”与“赐”通， 这是否郑和第七次远航时候受明宣宗委赐给外国元首的“金牌”，宣喻宣宗皇帝登基改元的物件？是否证明郑和舰队到过美洲？美国俄亥俄州的李兆良博士提供一些新的背景资料让大家参考，判断。
按照明史，历代皇帝登基改元，均派使节向外国通告。明宣宗年号宣德(1426-1435)，此即他于1430年任命郑和出洋的主要原因。宣宗的金牌信符，只有代表明朝皇帝的最高使节，如郑和或他的副领和外国元首级领受人才有资格持有。宣宗以后，中国闭关400多年。直到1850年后才开始有比较多的中国人来美，早期华人移民都是在西部寻金或建铁路的劳工，金牌出土当地的铁路是黑奴和囚犯建的。华工与来往中美间的传教士也不太可能带这样的物品来美国，因为它没有什么经济价值或艺术价值。直到今天，该小镇只有四个华人，当然没有中国文物店。金牌的历史重要性对没有看过郑和舰队的外国人来说是完全陌生的。这样的“金牌”当时应该不只一个。但在中国也很少见，因为通常下一任的皇帝都把它收回，熔铸新铜器，钱币和兵器。而郑和出使经过的国家几乎都被外国占领掠夺过，文化受到极大摧残，这种平凡的铜牌，留下来的机会也不大。
这块“金牌”(其实是黄铜做的)埋在四英寸的土里，经过近六百年，并没有明显锈蚀的征象。只是表面牢牢地结上一层泥土。金牌实际是黄铜造的，含有锌，锡，抗腐蚀性比较强。宣德年间，中国第一次比较大量生产黄铜，铸造了有名的宣德炉。宣德铜钱也出现了黄铜。化学分析结果显示这面金牌的铜，锌，锡分布不平均，明显是黄铜初期技术未完善之故。假若今天要伪造同样的黄铜器，还不一定能仿得如此粗糙。
这面金牌出土地点原来是切诺基(Cherokee)土人的主要部落，也是他们与欧洲第一批移民激烈战斗的战场。两百多个切诺基土人被***。几十里内，所有村庄被毁。1776年，美国独立战争后，政府无法付军饷，就把切诺基人的土地分给士兵。再引起了两者的冲突，切诺基人再一次遭到***， 此地遂为欧洲移民占领。1838年，所有密西西比河东部的印第安人被强迫迁徙远离原居留地千里以外的俄克拉荷马州，是美国历史上有名的“Trail of Tears”(泪之轨迹)。以上推断，金牌的原主如果不是欧洲人，就是切诺基人，他们在战争慌乱中丢失金牌，从此金牌下落不明，直到最近出土，由李兆良博士认出它的历史重要性。但为何金牌在内陆切诺基人的原居留地出土？是否他们从靠海岸的土著处得到？这又引出另一段故事。
切诺基人的邻居，靠海岸的卡托巴族(Catawba)是北美最擅制造精美陶器者，每家都有陶人。其中某些陶器式样，极似三足宣德炉。卡托巴族与切诺基族既是敌对，也有贸易关系。欧洲各国，特别是英国，对中国的瓷器极为爱好。千方百计要获得技术。1712年耶稣会传教士把景德镇的造瓷技术用书信告知欧洲，但欧洲仍不会从矿土提炼瓷土。直到1768年，英国才从卡罗莱纳进口白瓷泥，成立了第一家瓷器厂。即使如此，18世纪的英国瓷器，仍然无法与中国瓷器竞争。而同时的卡托巴土著，已经会造很好的陶器，与美洲西部的印第安人的陶器，大大不同。当地的欧洲移民也会生产类似明朝式样的陶瓷。为何其他方面还是新石器时代的美洲土著和资源短缺的欧洲新移民能超越工业革命时代的大陆欧洲人呢？中国陶瓷工艺已经有近一万年历史，是世界上最发达的。有趣的是瓷器的原料，切诺基语的英文音译为“unaker”，与中国南方方言“垩泥”发音相类。“垩土” 一词中国山海经里已有，沿用至明朝，垩泥是南方方言，更贴切代表瓷土加水操作的实际。清朝以后，垩土改称为瓷土，高岭土等。据景德镇的瓷器工艺资深人士，郑和当年不只带了瓷器作礼品，也同时带了“垩泥”做成的“白墩子“(泥砖) 作演示瓷器的原料。此点尚需证实。但郑和当年出海，带领各类型的技工船员近三万人。陶瓷工人随船而行，是很可能的。比较中，美，欧三地陶瓷的发展史，是否能得到一点启示呢？
切诺基人古时候有两面族旗，白底上有红色北斗星的为文旗，颜色相反的是武旗。除了北斗星以外，切诺基人没有其他天文星座的记录。要认得星座，需要长期观察和文字记录。切诺基人的文字是后来欧洲人帮忙创造的。而另一方面，中国自春秋时代就有观星的记录。周朝就以北斗作为帝星。自宋，金，元，明，至清以来，皇帝的仪仗中，北斗星旗是必有的，而且是居中的。而明朝皇帝特别信奉道教，北斗是道教的主要符征。郑和航海的牵星板是以北斗星做纬度测定的。文武旗的设立也是在海上通讯的主要工具。即使今日，中国各地用北斗，七星命名的器物，地名，随处可见。反观其他世界各国，包括美国历代旗子，在十九世纪以前，没有一面是用北斗的。切诺基人也有两位酋长，一掌文，一掌武。明朝与切诺基人的制度为何如此相似，是值得推敲的。
根据明史，郑和于1433年在印度逝世，不过也没有物证。南京郑和墓里面埋葬的是否本人，还是有争议的。
六百年了。假若郑和的舰队真正来过美洲，他们接触到的应该是美洲土著。由于美洲土著没有文字记载，而郑和当年的记录又被烧毁，散落不全。要寻找确实的证据， 非常困难，许多线索，均需要靠推理。以上各点，金牌是一个特殊个别的例子。瓷器却是一个普遍的例子。铸铜与造瓷，都是明代中国有特殊飞跃的两项技术，很具代表性。此外，语言习惯的痕迹都有值得进一步探讨的意义。这段悬案，就像一块很大的拼图，需要众人大胆假设，小心求证。完全相信史书记载，恐怕还是不能得到全貌罢。以上的推想，离开立论还早，需要更进一步的研究，希望有识之士，能放开胸怀，也别把结论下得太早。
李博士的专业是化学。但他对中国文化，历史，书法，音乐均有很浓的兴趣。1996年，他创办的亚洲风网站包括书法，中国文物鉴赏，吸引了许多网友。因而得到线索，看中这块不起眼的老铜片。有趣的是，李博士住在以哥伦布命名的城市。
http://blog.phoenixtv.com/user3/ ... es/2006/243806.html
Photo1: “宣德”牌全貌
photo2: 李兆良博士与“宣德”牌
photo3: “宣德”牌的正面与背面
photo4: 圆牌中所铸“大明宣德委锡”六个字
photo5: 切诺基人的文旗
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-8-7 12:48 PM ]
Image Attachment:
Photo1.jpg (2006-8-1 08:59 AM, 24.21 K) / Download count 37
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=25625
Image Attachment:
Photo2.jpg (2006-8-1 08:59 AM, 23.67 K) / Download count 35
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=25626
Image Attachment:
Photo3.jpg (2006-8-1 08:59 AM, 22.96 K) / Download count 34
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=25627
Image Attachment:
Photo4.jpg (2006-8-1 09:00 AM, 35.3 K) / Download count 35
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=25628
Image Attachment:
photo5.gif (2006-8-1 09:01 AM, 584 bytes) / Download count 37
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=25629
Author: correction Time: 2006-8-2 04:52 PM Subject: Columbus reaches America with Chinese nautical chart, scholar
Columbus reaches America with Chinese nautical chart, scholar
In his book entitled "The 1421 Heresy, An Investigation into the Ming Chinese Maritime Survey of the World", U.S. historian Chao C Chien presents historical evidences and points out that Chinese circumnavigated and charted the earth long before Europeans, and European navigators including Christopher Columbus used Chinese nautical chart to make sea journeys.
According to a report on "World Journal" of the U.S., Chao C Chien was born in China and worked as a senior aerospace engineer in U.S. Jet Propulsion Laboratory. He spent two and a half years collecting historical documents and nautical charts in major libraries and universities.
After analyzing more than 300 historical documents, Chao C Chien concluded that China was the most powerful country with longest sea-going legacy in the world until the 15th century. The Chinese may have begun international nautical activities in Song Dynasty (1127-1279) and the Europeans learned a lot from the Chinese about navigation.
Chao C Chien emphasizes that the only purpose of his research is to illuminate the historical facts and prove that Chinese people's global circumnavigation is not a legend but a fact.
By People's Daily Online
Author: correction Time: 2006-8-2 05:07 PM Subject: Chinese maps, star charts and records which escaped destruction
(a) Chinese maps and star charts which escaped destruction
Title & approx. date of amendments Subject / Relevance
Wu Pei Chih, c. 1422. (Only a small part translated) Chinese accept this contains information that was brought by Zheng He. It gives courses to steer between China and Africa and between other continents and shows Australia.
Mao Kun, c. 1422 Kerguelen, Indian Ocean and Islands. East African coast.
Kangnido (1402-73) Asia, East, South and West Africa, Mediterranean, Atlantic, Azores.
Star Chart (Mao Kun) c. 1422 Polaris compared with Southern Cross and Alpha Centauri.
Matteo Ricci (c. 1588). Globe. Australia (drawn from Chinese maps when Fra Ricci was in China)
Xi Yang Fang No. Zhi by Gong Zhen, Navigator on Zheng He’s 7th voyage (Tai-Peng Wang) Description of Barbarian Countries of the West.
Taiwan Porcelain Map (1447) painted by Chinese Australia - East coast down to Tasmania. See also accounts of Missionary to Beijing and Chinese fisherman’s charts (Martin Tai evidence).
Da Ming Hun Yi Tu (1389) S. Africa (Map of the Great Amalgamated Ming Empire)
Antique map in private hands on parchment written in Chinese, showing West coast of N America – currently being authenticated and dated (Charlotte Rees). Maps of Dr. Hendon Harris (currently with Dr. Herbert – Library of Congress)
Vellum Map (dated 1300’s) Shows part of E. Asia and parts of coast of W. coast of N. America (Dr. Herbert / Charlotte Rees)
Map of N. America (early 1500’s) Shows West coast of U.S.A. in detail (Library of Congress vaults – Washington D.C. (Charlotte Rees))
Zheng He's integrated map of the world 1418 - to be published January 2006 Clearly shows the whole world as charted by the Chinese in 1418 (Liu Gang)
i.e. these charts which escaped destruction describe the whole world.
(b) Chinese records which escaped destruction
(Largely taken from Chinese Discovery of Australia by Professor Wei Ju Xian)
Australia
(i) Confucius: Spring and Autumn Annals (481 BC) recorded solar eclipses in Australia
17 April 592 and 11 August 553).
(ii) Classics of Mountains and Seas (338 BC) describes boomerangs, black millet and kangaroos.
(iii) Atlas of Foreign Countries (265-316 AD) describes small black natives of Northern Australia.
Poles/Equator
(i) Zhuangzi (3rd century BC): “It takes six months including flying and resting time for seagulls to fly 90,000 li from North to South Pole”.
(ii) Ancient Chinese books: “Distance North Pole to South Pole is more than 80,000 li”. [Old Chinese li = half a kilometre]
(iii) Qi-xie (643 BC): “If a person of Yan State [Hebei Province] goes north and a person of Yue State [Zhejian, S. China] goes south they will meet each other at the very end of their journey”.
(iv) Zhuangzi also mentions going round the earth from east to west. Xun zi [40 years after Zhuangzi] also mentions round earth from east to west.
(v) Lienzi (3rd century BC): “South of Africa sun cannot be seen for 50 consecutive days.
(vi) Illustrated Record of Strange Countries (published 1430) describes North Pole – Eskimos; coldness; sunshine hours; polar lights; sea elephants and seals.
(vii) Marco Polo mentioned several unique aspects of geography that could not possibly have been contrived from hearsay or imagination. For example, he mentions in one episode that while travelling towards the North Pole (by compass), he observed that the Pole Star (at the Geographic Pole) appeared to have a southerly bearing. This observation of the discrepancy between the location of the Magnetic North Pole and Polaris could only have been made by a person who had travelled to a point midway between the Geographic Pole and the Magnetic Pole. This is solid proof that Marco Polo had indeed reached the Canadian Arctic. – Dr. Gunnar Thompson. To view Dr. Thompson‘s fascinating research please visit www.marcopolovoyages.com
Europe
Ming Shi , Year 6 Zheng He to Mulanpi (south Spain) (Martin Tai evidence).
A reader claims that there are still many Chinese official imperial documents in European museums. Only 64 volumes of Emperor Yongle's documents were returned by Russian authorities. (Miss Hui)
Taipei - Taiwan
Taipei Palace Museum has a lot of treasure and data from the Ming dynasty. Reader believes that it will offer more evidence to support ‘1421’. (Ta Ting Peng) It would be good to hear from anybody who has the opportunity to visit this museum.
Cape of Good Hope
1996 Chinese publication has documentation of a Chinese rounding of the Cape of Good Hope and reaching the Atlantic in 1420. This document is the collection of Prince Yusuf Kamal (Monumenta Cartographia Africae et Aegypti, Vol X, pt 4, 1409 sq) Reference: Shen Fuwei, Cultural Flow Between China and the Outside World Throughout History, 1st edition, 1996, Beijing: Foreigh Language Press Pages 183 & 191. (TH LOH)
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-8-7 12:45 PM Subject: Thanks correction! Here is the English translation of post #256
The Mystery of Zheng He and America
A 7-cm diameter plain brass medal with the inscription “Authorized and awarded by XuanDe of Great Ming” was unearthed several hundred miles inland from the American east coast.
In 1430, Ming Emperor Xuan Zong commissioned Zheng He to deliver a message to foreign nations that he was enthroned with a new era named Xuan De. This was the whole purpose of the 7th and the last expedition for Zheng He. “Did Zheng He’s excursion reach east America? Or is there other explanation? The owner of the disk, Dr. Siu-Leung Lee, would like to present some interesting observations and leave the conclusion to the audience.
Ming emperors had a diplomatic protocol to announce enthronement and new era by sending gifts and medals to other nations. Xuan De (1426-1435) is the Nianhao (era) of Emperor Xuan Zong, the 5th emperor of Ming dynasty. In 1430, he dispatched Zheng He to announce his enthronement. The medal represented the highest authority of the emperor and was only delivered by a diplomat like Zheng He or his deputy. After Xuan Zong died, China isolated herself from the rest of the world for more than 400 years. Chinese started to come to America after 1850s as indenture labor mostly through the west coast to mine gold and build the railway. Few Chinese came through this part of the east coast where the railway was built exclusively by slaves and convicts. Today, this little town of 9000 has 4 Chinese by US Census in Year 2000. This brass disk is minimally decorated with little monetary or artistic value to Chinese laborers and European missionaries, who are the other possible carriers of items from China. This kind of medal should be more than one in those days, but they were usually collected, melted down and recycled by the next emperor. Those countries along Zheng He’s route all suffered from multiple wars. Items like this were easily lost in looting.
The brass medal was discovered under 4 inches of soil in a scantly populated area several hundred miles inland from the east coast of America. After almost 600 years, the medal shows no apparent signs of corrosion, other than a tight coating of soil. Preliminary analysis of the metal composition shows that the material is brass, a copper alloy with zinc. Xuan De was the era when brass first became available for making the famous Xuan De brass censers and coins.
The brass medal was unearthed at the center of Cherokee Indians’ homeland that became a major battleground with the first European settlers. Hundreds of Cherokee Indians were massacred in multiple battles. 1776, right after the American Independence, the US government offered land grant to the soldiers in lieu of monetary payment. Cherokee’s homeland was given to the soldiers, resulting in another major conflict and massacre. Could they be the ones who lost the medal in the war? The Cherokee people were later driven more than a thousand miles away to Oklahoma in 1838-39 in a historical event known as the “Trail of Tears” during which thousands of Cherokee Indians died. During the colonial era, 90-95% of the Cherokee perished. But why was the medal found inland? Did they obtain it from other tribes near the coast? This traces to another story.
The coastal tribe Catawba is well known for making pottery. Every Catawba family has potters. Some of their pottery designs bear great resemblance to bronze censers made in Xuan De era. The Catawba and Cherokee tribes were rivalries but also traded with each other. Could the Catawba tribe be the first to contact with the Ming people? Europeans, especially the English have been trying to reproduce the Chinese porcelain for ages without success. In 1712-22, a Jesuit missionary learned about the secret of Jingdezhen (China’s porcelain capital) and wrote two long letters back home. However, Europe still could not produce true porcelain for the lack of the knowledge to process white clay. The first discovery of white clay was by Andrew Duché in America. Wedgwood, the founder of the first porcelain industry in England dispatched Thomas Griffiths to America to look for china clay. By kidnapping the chief’s wife, he was led to the white clay pit by the Cherokee chief. Tons of the white clay were shipped back to London to set up Wedgwood, the first porcelain factory in England. Even so, England’s porcelain was still not competitive against the Chinese imports during the entire 18th century. Yet, at the same time, pottery in North Carolina was made in Ming style by natives and new European immigrants. What took China close to 10,000 years to perfect was not so easily learned even by the technologically adept Europeans at that time. How could the Neolithic Cherokee and Catawba Indians master this technology so well? The most fascinating fact is the Cherokee term for china clay (kaolin) is “unaker”, similar to what Chinese call it “uk-nake”in southern dialect. Is it a coincidence? All this happened before the arrival of the Europeans. The name uk-nake was used up to Ming dynasty. It was replaced by other terms like china clay. A Jingdezhen porcelain expert said that Zheng He might have brought the clay bricks (petuntse or baidunzi) along with the porcelain gifts.
The Cherokee people have two original flags, viz. one with a white background and the Bigger Dipper constellation in red that they called the peace flag. The war flag is reversed in color. Observation of constellation has been a routine in China since ChunQiu era. A flag with the Bigger Dipper has been used as one of several flags in imperial ceremonial parade from Song dynasty to Qing dynasty. The Ming emperors were especially fond of the Big Dipper in association with their Daoist belief. Zheng He used an instrument Qian Xing Ban (Boards aligning with the stars) to calculate the latitude using the Polaris and the bigger Dipper. On the other hand, lacking a written language to record the celestial observations, the Cherokee people had no knowledge of other constellations on record.
According to the history of Ming dynasty, Zheng He died in India in 1433. But it has never been proven since his body could not be shipped back to China. Ming dynasty had significant advances in brass and porcelain. The brass medal is a specific case and pottery a general case. Could these clues change the history we have been told? More research is necessary.
A chemist by profession, Dr. Lee has been interested in Chinese culture in many aspects. In 1996, Dr. Lee founded the Asiawind.com website which hosts the world’s first Chinese calligraphy website and a Chinese antique website that drew attention to an inquiry about the medal. To many, this medal might be easily discarded as a piece of scrap metal. Perhaps it is the combined knowledge of Chinese history, calligraphy and chemistry that allowed Dr. Lee to recognize the significance of this obscure brass plate. Ironically, Dr. Lee lives in Columbus, Ohio, USA.
For further information, please contact:
Siu-Leung Lee, PhD
SLLEE@ASIAWIND.COM http://www.asiawind.com
Source link: http://www.1421.tv/pages/news/index.asp?NewsID=12
By the way, this is a repost. I posted this post before but it was deleted by the supermoderator 'chinadaily' without proper reason. Here I repost.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-8-7 08:52 PM ]
Author: correction Time: 2006-8-7 04:13 PM Subject: Thanks Shan, here is another piece of interesting evidence
Knowledge of the Spherical Earth Centered on the Sun -Gunnar Thompson, Ph.D.
There is a lot of confusion among modern historians regarding when ancient peoples realized that earth is a sphere that orbits the sun. Among many 19th century romantic historians, it was not uncommon to hear them praising Columbus for “proving that the earth was round!” This is added to a host of dubious achievements in an effort to justify calling Columbus the most important person since Jesus Christ. Even as recently as April of 2006, there were some historians who offered the incredibly naïve conjecture that the Chinese didn’t realize that the earth was round until informed so by the Jesuits in the 16th century. This is offered as part of the ridiculous reasoning why it would have been impossible for the Ming Chinese to make a map of the spherical earth in 1418.
Regarding earth's sphericity: There were many Han Dynasty bronze mirrors that show the world as a circle. In most societies where artists or astronomers portray earth as a circle, it is usually an indication that the astronomers have come to the realization that the world is round. The existence of such artifacts in China confirms the fact that astronomers realized the sphericity of earth by 200 BCE--although such knowledge was probably not very common throughout the rest of society. There's no need causing farmers who never traveled very far from home to worry about falling off the spherical earth.
On the Han Dynasty mirrors, the land areas or continents are symbolized by a square shape—like the square hole that was commonly found at the center of Chinese coins. It probably had the same meaning. In other words, the coins were a ubiquitous expression of the concept of a spherical (or round) earth that had land areas surrounded by water. At the edge of the water is a ring of pyramids representing mountains or a “ring continent” around the circumference of the earth. This concept of a “ring continent” is also seen in the common Chinese maps from the ancient geography called Shanhai Jing. The maps are typically referred to as Tien Xia Tu in China, Ch’onhado in Korea, and Shanhai Jing in the West. Hendon Harris wrote about these maps in a book called The Asiatic Fathers of America. On these maps, the Old World continents of Asia, Africa, and Europe are portrayed at the center surrounded by a ring of ocean and a second ring of land—the overseas “ring continent” that represented New Lands across the seas. Ancient Babylonian and Arab world maps such as those by Al-Idrisi have a similar portrayal of a round earth surrounded by a ring of mountains. I have suspected for a long time that both the Arabs and the Babylonians got their inspiration from the Chinese Shanhai Jing geography.
Taoist artwork showing the phases of the moon suggests that at least some astronomers appreciated that earth and moon revolved around the sun. While not common knowledge throughout society, there’s really no doubting that astronomers—who were constantly observing the heavens—eventually realized the nature of the solar system. And they passed this knowledge on to their successors at the astronomical institutions. I would expect that as was also the case with ancient Greece where Aristarchus declared by 150 BC that earth revolved around the sun. Probably, some key Chinese astronomers had also reached that conclusion by about 3000 BCE. Also, the Han Chinese and Romans exchanged more than silk during the 2nd century BCE--so there was likely cross-fertilization in the astronomical field as well.
The Western focus on Copernicus and Galileo being the first to appreciate that earth revolved around the sun was simply a result of finding a worthy Catholic to honor with supposedly making the scientific discovery. During the middle ages, when speaking against the scriptural interpretations of Church authorities was met with severe punishment, many intellectuals had knowledge that they didn't often dare to put in writing. One exception was Geoffrey Chaucer. His book Treatise on the Astrolabe says that proof the earth and moon revolve around the sun can be determined from observing the phases of the moon. This took place in about the year 1460—or about a century ahead of Copernicus and two centuries ahead of Galileo. Chaucer says that if the earth and not the sun were at the center of the universe, with both sun and moon orbiting earth every day, then the phases of the moon would also occur every single day. Alas for the primacy of Chaucer in declaring that earth orbits the sun, England broke away from the Mother Church under Henry VIII—thus making any Englishman unworthy of the honor given to the otherwise loyal Catholic—Copernicus.
During a press conference in Beijing in March of 2006, some reporters and Eurocentric historians claimed that the "dual-hemispheric projection" for maps was invented in Renaissance Europe. According to this Eurocentric doctrine, Mo Yi-tong's rendition of a 1418 Ming Map would have to be a copy of a European map made in the 16th century. However, the idea that assumption that the dual-hemispheric design of the Chinese map was copied from a European prototype is totally absurd. To begin with, the design of the 1418 Map does not have the kind of adjacent circles that are always shown on European maps of this type; instead, it has overlapping circles or “conjoined circles.” Furthermore, the 1418 Ming Map is not a “projection” of continents into spherical equivalents but is instead more a composite of land areas from otherwise flat maps that have been fitted into a circular shape. It is possible that the original artist distorted the land areas to some extent in order to mimic the effect of curvature of the earth. Even so, the Ming Map does not have the characteristic grid of longitudes and latitudes that are seen on Renaissance maps.
A book on Taoism by Stephen Little, Ed., et al., (Taoism and the Arts of China, Art Institute of Chicago, 2000, p. 344-347) clearly shows that the "conjoined hemispheres" as seen in Mo Yi-tong's map relates to a Taoist artistic explanation for the phases of the moon or for patterns of daylight and night as the shadows of Yin/Yang pass across the planet. Two illustrations in Little's book show two overlapped hemispheres (called “conjoined hemispheres”) representing both sides of the moon. The same kind of illustration would have served to explain the patterns of light and dark or daylight and nighttime on the surface of the earth. The writer says that the Qing-era illustrations on a scroll were copies of the same designs that were used on a Southern Song Dynasty scroll (1127-1279). He says that the same text was used in a Ming Dynasty Taoist Canon or book of philosophy. Zhang Boduan (984-1082) is identified as the originator of the spiritual text. This concept of “conjoined hemispheres” was prevalent in Taoist art during the Song, Yuan, and Ming Dynasties. In other words, the claim on the part of Eurocentric historians that use of such a design on the 1418 Ming Map represents a copy of the Renaissance European maps is totally unfounded.
The Taoist Scroll is called Jinye huandan yinzeng tu or “Sealed Verification of the Golden Elixir of the Reverted Cinnabar.” The present location of the scroll is at the White Cloud Monastery in Beijing. So, we can be certain that this kind of artwork served as an inspiration for the artist Mo Yi-tong working in Beijing. It seems quite possible that Europeans acquired this idea of dual-hemispheric map design from Ming Chinese or Arabian sources.
Eurocentric historians automatically assume that the Chinese got the idea of the round earth and dual-hemispheric map design from Jesuit geographers in the 17th century. This misconception on the part of leading historians in the West is really embarrassing to the profession of history—which is supposed to be based on evidence instead of doctrine or conjecture.
Source link: http://www.1421.tv
[ Last edited by correction at 2006-8-7 04:25 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-8-7 08:30 PM Subject: Correction, I got the certificate here!
Correction, thanks for the information, it looks like we are getting pieces together, more and more interesting now. Here I got the certificate. You can save them as picture files and repost.
Liu Gang's map AMS Dating Certificate from Waikato University
By the way, not long ago, "mencius" had been here spred rumers lies he picked up from a garbage site saying that the Waikato University refused to let Galvine Menzie use their data. Here we have found the certificate of the carbon dating data certificate on Galvine Menzie's website!
For those who want to see the original, go to the following link, you can see Liu Gang's Map AMS Carbon Dating Certificate from Waikato University of New Zealand posted at Menzie's site:
http://www.1421.tv/assets_cm/files/PDF/carbondating_waikato.pdf
The following is the photo copies of the certificate, click on the image to see a larger picture, enjoy!
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-8-7 09:21 PM ]
Image Attachment:
AMS Dating Certificate Page1.jpg (2006-8-7 08:30 PM, 66.59 K) / Download count 208
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=26369
Image Attachment:
AMS Dating Certificate Page 2.jpg (2006-8-7 08:31 PM, 31.4 K) / Download count 206
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=26370
Author: correction Time: 2006-8-8 01:38 PM Subject: Thanks Shan for the AMS Dating Certificate!
Wow, finally we have here the ultimate proof that Liu Gang's map is tested as authentic! Now who can deny the above certificate!?
Only fools who never see the truth, will keep on perpetuating lies that Columbus discovery of America was accidental!
It was never accidental, Columbus was given Chinese maps showing destinations to the Americas!!
"• Columbus’ “discovery” of the Americas: Letter from Toscanelli to Columbus. “. . . I notice your splendid and lofty desire to sail to the regions of the East by those of the West [i.e. to sail to China westabout] . . . as is shown by the chart which I send you . . .” [chart is excerpt of Portuguese 1428 Master Chart of the world showing Antilia].
Letter from Toscanelli to King of Portugal. “[before Christopher Columbus set sail] ... from the island of Antilia known to you [Antilia is Puerto Rico discovered by Chinese in 1421] . . . to Cepangu [Japan] is...”
.Columbus’ log, Wednesday October 24th 1492 (when in W. Atlantic) “. . . I should steer west-southwest to go there [to reach Antilia] . . . and in the sphere which I have seen and in the drawings and mappae mundi it is in this region. . .”
Thus, according to Columbus, Caribbean islands appeared on Portuguese maps of the world (Mappa Mundae) before Columbus set sail." ...quote
Part I .i The Europeans Reached the New World with copies of Chinese Maps- sourced from Menzies 1421.tv
[ Last edited by correction at 2006-8-8 04:07 PM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-8-18 03:29 PM Subject: Reply #262 correction's post
QUOTE:
Only fools who never see the truth, will keep on perpetuating lies that Columbus discovery of America was accidental!
Absolutely!
I must say when more and more evidences are surfacing day by day, those who has basic scientific training find more and more convienced Zheng He did far more and far earlier than Columbus...only fools would ignore the scientific facts.
Let the data speak, even if the map is silent, the data speaks louder.
Thank you, correction, for the PM, the new link and information. Before I post it. let's share the link with the readers first:
http://www.1421heresy.com/Home/Thesis/index.html
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-8-18 03:31 PM ]
Author: correction Time: 2006-8-23 03:06 PM Subject: A very interesting story!
Did the First European Settlers find a Chinese Colony when they arrived in New England in the early seventeenth century?
The first European settlers arrived a century after Verazzano had found Chinese near what is now New York. With the above background here is the gist of a very strange story, which came to our attention in December 2003, which GM investigated in January 2004. The source is a New England gentleman who lives in the house which his family have owned for a very long time. The house is at the centre of perhaps the oldest village in New England located some 20 miles north of Boston. It is therefore possible the family home was built by the first settlers. Here is the story as told to GM in December 2003 and January 2004.
“… About thirty years ago I became very interested in local history. In the centre of our village was a very old Inn, which had been turned into a library. The Library had a collection of letters that passed between the first English people who settled here and their relatives back home. I should say that the first English settlers came well before the Pilgrim Fathers. They were English Gentry who brought an entire village infrastructure with them onto what were Church Grant Lands, this was before the Civil War in England as the articles mentioned the real possibility that the leaving to the New World of some of England’s best blood may have helped to enable that insurrection. The Church Grant Lands were larger than the Princes Grants. This was while England was still part of the Catholic Union. These designations were changed with the many sovereignty changes in England. There were maps that showed the precession of house structures from the 1500,s to the present a fact as well on a family property deed. These people were titled and only dropped their titles when the Cromwellian expellees arrived . Some changed their names and we have still in a private home that has been rebuilt over the centuries an intact secret chapel that were built in this and neighboring communities when the rebels arrived. The less said the better for them only these few surviving relics gave an accurate view of the times & seasons of the real first settlements.
The Pilgrims who came later knew nothing about these communities having been here but they knew of the Pilgrims. The article mentioned ships & landing areas on the north shore. There was some link to England and no doubt precipitated by the events leading to the English Commonwealth.
“They had landed near what is now called New Plymouth and were surprised to find a well built stone harbour with stone quays and a stone tower nearby. A well made road led inland.”
“Some time after they had settled they came across a city of two story houses built of blue stone. This city was well recorded in various books & letters most of which are nearly impossible to find however periodically the region re discovers ancient literary treasures and they reappear. The city was well laid out with stone watercourses and pipes of lead and had running water in spring fed cisterns and a large underground burial complex. There were all types of artefacts including an unusual giant wheeled cart the colonists found housed and used calling it The Juggernaut. Some speculated that it was a deserted Roman colony used for tin mining . The new world settlements had enough problems getting started and so the only interest was recorded by these lettered gentry. It was mined for building stone by the later colonist farmers . The later colonial authorities encouraged its dismantling and the view that the less said the better rather than risk the possible return of whoever had left it. This was surprisingly the attitude of our local honorables even in the 1970,s when discussing the literature that there was knowledge of Chinese colonization and records left in the ruins and that in this new age with high tech weaponry development that we should not encourage or plant ideas in the heads of the Chinese as to a prior claim to the land. They did so and you can see those stones in the foundations of our village houses today.” The locals decided to save some of the stonework for remembrance or luck? Some of the paving stone was visible in the downtown of Watertown, Ma. in back lots as late as the early 20th Century these were described as huge squared paving stones of 5 to 6 ft. There were other outlying structures of stone, a 3 story tower north of Boston along a road and farms and unusual structures. Most people stayed nearby their new communities, most could have cared less to question any prior infrastructure and really couldn’t be blamed coming from a most uncertain and changeable period of English History. When later ships came to Plymouth one traveller questioned the now established colony there where they obtained this stone earthwork Quay so quickly; he recorded receiving replies of a local colonist and from an official queried later that it was Portugese. There is still a lot of this Chinese colony but it is all built over by new structures and incorporated we would need real dating help at hundreds of sites in many communities to identify & date material.
Some local Mass. men identified the remains of old hulks of longstanding in The Mystic Basin. They reported them to the governor as oriental and too big for their age to have been of other known ship types
“They then came across a line of deserted junks moored beside the Charles River. They reassessed their earlier decision believing now that the city had been built by Chinese. Although the city had been dismantled, the official attitude was still to get rid of remaining evidence. These had to be destroyed and the only effective method was by blowing them up. Gunpowder was in short supply and obtaining enough proved difficult - resulting in a number of letters between the settlers and “notables”. Eventually they succeeded. The hull wood should still be there alongside the Charles River and you should be able to find it.” It should be on the north side of the Charles-Mystic River confluence which is where the junks were grounded.
“Whilst the argument continued about the identity of their predecessors - whether Roman or Chinese” they corresponded with their relatives in England. Those remaining in England favoured the Chinese for they said a huge Chinese fleet of red sailed ships had visited England in the 1420’s. They had presented their credentials to the “Dowager Queen” complaining that they had been discourteously received in Spain and Portugal. They were now en route to Muscovy. Before leaving they presented the Dowager Queen with valuable vases, which she had displayed in her Palace outside London!I suspect the English followed their fleet North in order to get the information they had about the stop at a provincial Muscovy port where they were received by local officials before continuing North which puzzled them but they assumed a route to China.Once again I believe aside from protocols of Govt. secrecy that a lot of material was lost in the dynastic and later civil wars in England.
“When the village was being cleaned up for the bicentenary celebrations, it was decided to replace the roof of the library, the former inn. The records I have referred to were on the 2nd floor under the slate roof. They were removed for safekeeping whilst the work was carried out and appear to have been lost. The cleaning people accidentally threw them out over a period of weeks making room for the repairs to the building. I think they were accidentally buried in a land fill as were other old records but have been unable to find out.” This archive consisted of the records, privately printed volumes, gazettes, letters and early photographs and donated material from the libraries of our local honorables of the leading families as they had evolved into the 19th Century. I spent years in this attic reading these collections after school and later before the loss. These were people of extraordinary talent, authors, poets, musicians, and famous clergymen, financial wizards such as Charles Abbott "Father of The Trusts" They played host to a who’s who of early American life. Their later descendants were very conservative and not given to exaggeration. Most of them passed on and the Town modern now. A suggestion; this region is covered with the infrastructure of many prior attempts by other cultures in different time periods. Does it not seem to be the same that little or no mention is made of any of it except a few references of the materials from all over the New world simply being used over in new structures. Apparently people were just too busy like in all successive cultures that had this same experience of prior culture infrastructure in all places and times of the human experience on this earth…”
http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/content.asp?EvidenceID=343
Author: shanhuang Time: 2006-8-24 03:10 PM
Thank you 'corretcion' for the post. Obviously more and more evidences are emerging and more and more people are realizing the important implictaion of this interesting discovery story.
While you are presenting a critical queston "Did the First European Settlers find a Chinese Colony when they arrived in New England in the early seventeenth century?" I would once again remind this important newly emerged interesting story:
The Mystery of Zheng He and America
A 7-cm diameter plain brass medal with the inscription “Authorized and awarded by XuanDe of Great Ming” was unearthed several hundred miles inland from the American east coast.
In 1430, Ming Emperor Xuan Zong commissioned Zheng He to deliver a message to foreign nations that he was enthroned with a new era named Xuan De. This was the whole purpose of the 7th and the last expedition for Zheng He. “Did Zheng He’s excursion reach east America? Or is there other explanation? The owner of the disk, Dr. Siu-Leung Lee, would like to present some interesting observations and leave the conclusion to the audience.
Ming emperors had a diplomatic protocol to announce enthronement and new era by sending gifts and medals to other nations. Xuan De (1426-1435) is the Nianhao (era) of Emperor Xuan Zong, the 5th emperor of Ming dynasty. In 1430, he dispatched Zheng He to announce his enthronement. The medal represented the highest authority of the emperor and was only delivered by a diplomat like Zheng He or his deputy. After Xuan Zong died, China isolated herself from the rest of the world for more than 400 years. Chinese started to come to America after 1850s as indenture labor mostly through the west coast to mine gold and build the railway. Few Chinese came through this part of the east coast where the railway was built exclusively by slaves and convicts. Today, this little town of 9000 has 4 Chinese by US Census in Year 2000. This brass disk is minimally decorated with little monetary or artistic value to Chinese laborers and European missionaries, who are the other possible carriers of items from China. This kind of medal should be more than one in those days, but they were usually collected, melted down and recycled by the next emperor. Those countries along Zheng He’s route all suffered from multiple wars. Items like this were easily lost in looting.
The brass medal was discovered under 4 inches of soil in a scantly populated area several hundred miles inland from the east coast of America. After almost 600 years, the medal shows no apparent signs of corrosion, other than a tight coating of soil. Preliminary analysis of the metal composition shows that the material is brass, a copper alloy with zinc. Xuan De was the era when brass first became available for making the famous Xuan De brass censers and coins.
The brass medal was unearthed at the center of Cherokee Indians’ homeland that became a major battleground with the first European settlers. Hundreds of Cherokee Indians were massacred in multiple battles. 1776, right after the American Independence, the US government offered land grant to the soldiers in lieu of monetary payment. Cherokee’s homeland was given to the soldiers, resulting in another major conflict and massacre. Could they be the ones who lost the medal in the war? The Cherokee people were later driven more than a thousand miles away to Oklahoma in 1838-39 in a historical event known as the “Trail of Tears” during which thousands of Cherokee Indians died. During the colonial era, 90-95% of the Cherokee perished. But why was the medal found inland? Did they obtain it from other tribes near the coast? This traces to another story.
The coastal tribe Catawba is well known for making pottery. Every Catawba family has potters. Some of their pottery designs bear great resemblance to bronze censers made in Xuan De era. The Catawba and Cherokee tribes were rivalries but also traded with each other. Could the Catawba tribe be the first to contact with the Ming people? Europeans, especially the English have been trying to reproduce the Chinese porcelain for ages without success. In 1712-22, a Jesuit missionary learned about the secret of Jingdezhen (China’s porcelain capital) and wrote two long letters back home. However, Europe still could not produce true porcelain for the lack of the knowledge to process white clay. The first discovery of white clay was by Andrew Duché in America. Wedgwood, the founder of the first porcelain industry in England dispatched Thomas Griffiths to America to look for china clay. By kidnapping the chief’s wife, he was led to the white clay pit by the Cherokee chief. Tons of the white clay were shipped back to London to set up Wedgwood, the first porcelain factory in England. Even so, England’s porcelain was still not competitive against the Chinese imports during the entire 18th century. Yet, at the same time, pottery in North Carolina was made in Ming style by natives and new European immigrants. What took China close to 10,000 years to perfect was not so easily learned even by the technologically adept Europeans at that time. How could the Neolithic Cherokee and Catawba Indians master this technology so well? The most fascinating fact is the Cherokee term for china clay (kaolin) is “unaker”, similar to what Chinese call it “uk-nake”in southern dialect. Is it a coincidence? All this happened before the arrival of the Europeans. The name uk-nake was used up to Ming dynasty. It was replaced by other terms like china clay. A Jingdezhen porcelain expert said that Zheng He might have brought the clay bricks (petuntse or baidunzi) along with the porcelain gifts.
The Cherokee people have two original flags, viz. one with a white background and the Bigger Dipper constellation in red that they called the peace flag. The war flag is reversed in color. Observation of constellation has been a routine in China since ChunQiu era. A flag with the Bigger Dipper has been used as one of several flags in imperial ceremonial parade from Song dynasty to Qing dynasty. The Ming emperors were especially fond of the Big Dipper in association with their Daoist belief. Zheng He used an instrument Qian Xing Ban (Boards aligning with the stars) to calculate the latitude using the Polaris and the bigger Dipper. On the other hand, lacking a written language to record the celestial observations, the Cherokee people had no knowledge of other constellations on record.
According to the history of Ming dynasty, Zheng He died in India in 1433. But it has never been proven since his body could not be shipped back to China. Ming dynasty had significant advances in brass and porcelain. The brass medal is a specific case and pottery a general case. Could these clues change the history we have been told? More research is necessary.
A chemist by profession, Dr. Lee has been interested in Chinese culture in many aspects. In 1996, Dr. Lee founded the Asiawind.com website which hosts the world’s first Chinese calligraphy website and a Chinese antique website that drew attention to an inquiry about the medal. To many, this medal might be easily discarded as a piece of scrap metal. Perhaps it is the combined knowledge of Chinese history, calligraphy and chemistry that allowed Dr. Lee to recognize the significance of this obscure brass plate. Ironically, Dr. Lee lives in Columbus, Ohio, USA.
For further information, please contact:
Siu-Leung Lee, PhD
SLLEE@ASIAWIND.COM http://www.asiawind.com
Source link: http://www.1421.tv/pages/news/index.asp?NewsID=12
Photo1: “宣德”牌全貌, XuanDe brass medal
photo2: 李兆良博士与“宣德”牌, Dr. Lee and the medal
photo3: “宣德”牌的正面与背面, front and back of the medal
photo4: 圆牌中所铸“大明宣德委锡”六个字, inscription in details - “Authorized and awarded by XuanDe of Great Ming”
photo5: 切诺基人的文旗, Cherokee flag
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2006-8-24 03:47 PM ]
Image Attachment:
Photo1.jpg (2006-8-24 03:10 PM, 24.21 K) / Download count 199
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=27221
Image Attachment:
Photo2.jpg (2006-8-24 03:16 PM, 23.67 K) / Download count 209
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=27222
Image Attachment:
Photo3.jpg (2006-8-24 03:17 PM, 22.96 K) / Download count 200
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=27223
Image Attachment:
Photo4.jpg (2006-8-24 03:18 PM, 35.3 K) / Download count 202
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=27224
Image Attachment:
photo5.gif (2006-8-24 03:19 PM, 584 bytes) / Download count 197
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachment.php?aid=27225
Author: correction Time: 2006-8-24 05:27 PM Subject: Accounts of contemporary historians that describe Chinese in the New World
Thank you Shan, I found the evidence below worthy of our consideration.
Accounts of contemporary historians that describe Chinese in the New World
Accounts of contemporary historians
(a) Descriptions of Chinese - worldwide
Author Title/Description Date Written/(Published)
Chen Cheng (Chinese) Diary of Travel in the Western Regions. Chinese Emperor’s overtures to Persia and description of reopening trade to Mediterranean. 1405-14 (1414)
Ma Huan (Chinese) Ying Yai Shenlan: The overall survey of the ocean shores. Chinese fleet in southeast Asia and Indian Ocean. 1416-31 (1435)
Fei Xin (Chinese) Marvellous Visions from the Star Raft. Chinese fleet reaching Africa and then Timor (East Indonesia) 300 miles from Australia. 1405-31
Ibn Tagri Birdi (Egyptian) Nujum - (A History of Egypt). Chinese fleet reaching Red Sea & Jeddah. 1431
Ghiyash D Din Naqqash (dictated to Hafez Abru) (Persian) Subdatu-T’Tawarikh (Cream of Chronicles). Inauguration of the Forbidden City, 2 February 1421, delegates arriving and returning. 1419-22
-1424
Nicolo da Conti (Venetian) The Travels of Nicolo da Conti. c. 1420-24
Claims to have travelled to Australia. Describes Chinese fleet passing through Indian Ocean and his passage to Australia and China.Corroborated by statue in Fujian Palace. -1434
Fra Mauro (Venetian) Planisphere notes describe Chinese junk sailing across Indian Ocean non-stop (about end of 1420), rounding Cape of Good Hope to Cape Verde islands and “obscured islands”. c. 1420
-1459
Ibn Battuta (Moroccan) The Travels of Ibn Battuta describes huge Chinese ships in Indian Ocean.
Sir Humphrey Gilbert (English) Contemporary letter re Sir Humphrey Gilbert Map by John Dee of the Philadelphia Library’s notes that Dee shows the St. Lawrence “reaching through the Great Lakes, or a great lake – the Lake of Ontario beyond the La Chine (Chinese) Rapids” – Robin Lind 1582
Vasco da Gama (Portuguese) Journal of the First Voyage of Vasco da Gama Terrae Incognitae, Vol XXII Description c. 1419 describes Chinese fleet reaching Calicut as 800 vessels.
(b) Chinese already in the New World when the first Europeans arrived:
Key Bibliography – Additional to that contained in 1421
1a Giovanni de Verrazano1480-1524 Met Chinese near (modern) New York. Met Asiatic people near Rhode Island. Verazzano’s letter to Francis I of France. Hakluyt’s Collection of the Early Voyages and Discoveries of the English Nation, London 1810, pp. 358 et seq.
1b Bishop Berkeley Met Mongolian people at Dighton Rock
2 Francisco Vasquez de Coronado (1510-1554) Met people “so different from all the nations that [we] have seen… must have come from that part of Greater India the coast of which lies to the west of this country” [viz. China] Coronado was despatched by Viceroy Antonio de Mendoza in April 1541 to seek Quivira beyond the Arkansas River.
3 Pedro de Castaneda 1544 Official chronicler to Coronado’s expedition reported the journey and peoples above described in The Journey of Coronado trans. George Parker Winship, Dover Publications New York 1933 at pp. 58 et seq.
4 Antonio Galvão, c.1563
The Apostle of the Moluccas reports pre-Columbian voyages from China to America and Chinese settlements in America An Excellent Treatise of Antonio Galvão, Hakluyt, London 1812 (British Library209 h.z.)
5 José de Acosta 1540-1600
Spanish Jesuit missionary who describes the people, animals, birds, plants and flowers found by the first Europeans in Americas. Historia Natural y Moral de Las Indias, pub. Salamanca 1588-90 by Society of Jesus. Chinese in Mexico (272), Horses (273),Dogs (274, Hens (284), Coconuts (253), etc
6 Juan Gonzalez de Mendoza 1588 Chinese voyages to the New World before Europeans.Finds maize in China. The Historie of the Great and Mighty Kingdom of China…, trans. Robert Parke 1588, pub. Hakluyt Soc. 1853-54, London.p. 94 - Desire for grain cause China to travel to Mexico
7 Gregorio Garcia Chinese coming to populate Mexico [before Europeans] in El Reino de Anian
8 Hugo Grotius 1583-1645 Report of Asiatic shipwrecks (pre-Columbus) on the Pacific coast of Mexico. Bibliotheca Curiosa, pub. Hakluyt Society, London 1884.
9 Father Antonio de la Calancha 1638 Describes Chinese graves and pictures of Chinese horsemen in Peru – pre-Columbus Crónica Moralizadora, Barcelona 1638, Book II, p. 486 et seq.
10 F. de Guignes 1761 Collates earlier accounts of pre-Columbian Chinese people and ships in Americas – Coronado’s “gilded sterns” at Quivira, Chinese merchants in Quatulco and among Catualcans. Recherches sur les Navigations des Chinois du Côte de l’Amerique et sur Quelques Peuples Situées a l’Extrémité Orientale de L’Asie. Paris, 1761.
11 Antonio Zatta 1775 Published map showing Queen Charlotte Islands (British Columbia) which preceded Captain Cook or Vancouver’s ‘discovery’ of that island. Queen Charlotte Islands described as “Colonia dei Chinesi”. Published Venice 1775. (British Library (Maps)) c.26.6.14.
12 Stephen Powers 1877 Describes Chinese colony in California between Russian and Sacramento Rivers. Anthropological Journal of Canada, Vol 14 No. 1, 1976; and ‘Tribes of California’ in Contributions to North American Ethnology, Washington, 1877, Vols 1-3.
See also Aborigines of California. [The Atlantic monthly. / Volume 33, Issue 197, March 1874] For more information please click here
13 Loayza, F. A summary of the discoveries made by the first Europeans to the Americas who found Chinese people, villages, bodies, relics and Chinese animals, plants, birds, etc. (Trans. Ian Hudson) Chinos llegaron antes que Colon, pub. D. Miranda, Lima, 1948. ‘Chinese in Peru (p. 42); Chinese in Mexico (p. 67), Chinese bodies
14 Carlos, Prince Biographer of Pedro Menendez de Aviles, the Adelantado, who found pre-Columbian junks in the North Sea. “Chinese . . . with Tartairs, Japanese and Koreans . . . crossed the maritime stretch . . . into the Kingdom of Quivira, populating Mexico, Panama, Peru and other eastern countries of the Indies..."
15 Professor William Niven Who found the body of an important Chinese navigator buried with pomp (pre-Columbian) ‘Mélanges et Nouvelles Americanistes’ Journal de la Société de Americanistes de Paris, Vol X, p. 303 et seq.
16 Christopher Columbus Met Chinese when he arrived in Cuba, and reported Chinese visitors to Greenland before 1477 and Chinese bodies in Azores before 1492. Biography in 1421.
17 Christopher Columbus Secret report (Maritime archives, Madrid) For this document consult On the Origin of Dragon and Phoenix Culture, 1988 by Wang Da Yiu, Song Bao Zhou in preface by Fang Zhong Pu. Chinese miners in ‘bird ship’. (Martin Tai)
18a
http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/content.asp?EvidenceID=28
[ Last edited by correction at 2006-8-24 05:35 PM ]
Author: budebuai Time: 2008-1-16 02:42 AM
Happy Birthday, 2nd birthday of this outstanding thread
amazing thread, fond gratitude to all the posters, this thread has great informations. Its one of my favorable reads.
TTCD is of Great Value for me ! so much to learn.
thank you,
Author: interesting Time: 2008-1-16 03:06 AM
The map is an obvious fake produced with antique materials, a common technique when creating forgeries that will be sold for high prices. The most telling detail is that the map contains both Hunan and Hubei provinces, neither existed at that time as both are products of the Qing dynasty division of Huguang province.
Author: wowzers Time: 2008-1-16 03:13 AM
What ever happened?
Is this map real or not?
It seemed to disappear off the map
Author: tradervic Time: 2008-1-16 03:18 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by interesting at 1/15/2008 01:06 PM
The map is an obvious fake produced with antique materials, a common technique when creating forgeries that will be sold for high prices. The most telling detail is that the map contains both Hunan ...
A Vinland map by any other name?
If my hazy memory serves, this was reported as an "18th century copy of..."
Sounds like the "In Search of..." crew is busy again.
Author: interesting Time: 2008-1-16 04:03 AM
Trader,
Pretty much. It is a copy of a 17th century French map used for non-navigational purposes like that which would have graced the front of an atlas. Another important indication is that it is not of the style of Chinese maps, which would place China at the center of the world without fail.
Author: wowzers Time: 2008-1-16 04:05 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by interesting at 2008-1-16 which would place China at the center of the world without fail.
Not that there is anything wrong with that!
Author: interesting Time: 2008-1-16 04:19 AM
Wowzers,
It doesn't matter to me where people start their representations. On US maps, the US is on the left-hand side because it's easier for Americans to think of if they start there (because of left-to-right reading) or in the center, because it is easy if you want to compare across to Asia as well. Other maps have similar conventions, others try to put their country at the center (Britain went so far as to draw the prime meridian there, too).
I prefer left-hand orientation, personally, because it does not require dividing Eurasia.
[ Last edited by interesting at 2008-1-16 02:05 AM ]
Author: wowzers Time: 2008-1-16 04:23 AM Subject: Perspective...
Yeah I know but it is fascinating how different people look differently at the globe.
It reminds me of late last year when I was in Vietnam and they called it the American War.
Author: interesting Time: 2008-1-16 04:26 AM
Wowzers,
Yeah. I think it's interesting that China, for example, seems to consider the war against Japan as a separate phenomenon from the war in Europe while Americans tend to see them as linked. There's also an internal tendency, slowly dying in the US, for the American Civil War to be called "the Civil War" outside the South and "the War Between the States" in the South.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2008-1-19 08:04 AM Subject: Shanhuang did us a great service with this thread
Note that Shan is very much a detail-oriented person.
This thread obviously took a lot of patient work.
Some people merely come in to give a jab without even looking at his arguments.
Author: shanhuang Time: 2008-1-19 09:30 AM Subject: Reply #268 interesting's post
QUOTE:
The map is an obvious fake produced with antique materials, a common technique when creating forgeries that will be sold for high prices. The most telling detail is that the map contains both Hunan and Hubei provinces, neither existed at that time as both are products of the Qing dynasty division of Huguang province.
Interesting, did you read what's in the post #261 before you speak? It was scientific data from New Zealand that proved the map is ancient, isn't you just told us you are a fake?
Tell me where it said Hunan and Hubei provinces on the map, show me on the map.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2008-1-20 08:28 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2008-1-19 09:37 AM Subject: Reply #275 interesting's post
QUOTE:
Yeah. I think it's interesting that China, for example, seems to consider the war against Japan as a separate phenomenon from the war in Europe while Americans tend to see them as linked. There's also an internal tendency, slowly dying in the US, for the American Civil War to be called "the Civil War" outside the South and "the War Between the States" in the South.
Are a joking again here? Did you find the evidence for what you claimed in western garbage history book(s)? China has always said the anti-Japan war is part of the world war II, however, do you know that the Japanese invaded China long before the European War broke out, in 1937? you don't, do you? It lasted for 8 years, how long the European war lasted?
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2008-1-20 08:31 AM ]
Author: shanhuang Time: 2008-1-19 09:45 AM Subject: Reply #271 interesting's post
QUOTE:
Pretty much. It is a copy of a 17th century French map used for non-navigational purposes like that which would have graced the front of an atlas. Another important indication is that it is not of the style of Chinese maps, which would place China at the center of the world without fail.
Hey fake interest,
What's your proof it was a copy of an European map? How do you know We may not have another copy hiding somewhere that's navigational? Did you read my previous posts about the first Africa map that Chinese made in the 13th century? it looks very similar to this one, it was made even before this one, yet no scholar in the world denies it because "natigational" or not.
Where did you find Chinese saying "without fail"? Don't be so absolute, we always said you Europeans are barbaric, would you accept it "without fail"? What if the content of the map was put on a new scale when it was copied? Chinese are smarter than you.
[ Last edited by shanhuang at 2008-1-20 08:38 AM ]
Author: wchao37 Time: 2008-1-19 10:27 AM Subject: This is a thread that needs to be perused carefully, not skimmed through
...like schreiber is doing.
Note that the carbon dating proved the map was genuine. I hope people would read the details. This is not a job for the faint-hearted. This is a thread on the science of discovery, not haphazard wandering around.
Author: olmeca Time: 2009-5-17 03:21 AM Subject: Re: Chinese discovered Americas first
The friggin' Olmecs discovered the Americas first.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2009-5-30 02:51 PM
An illuminating thread.
Now that it's rid of its buttplug, the forum has a new lease on life.
Author: bumboy Time: 2009-5-30 03:30 PM
Keep up the good work wchao37, this is your forum, your the best contributor.
Author: exportedkiwi Time: 2009-5-30 04:44 PM Subject: Reply #283 bumboy's post
You have been measured and found wanting, ya buttplug! ! inch, my a$$, you're a felcher! Hope the camel has the sense to wander away.
Author: petera Time: 2009-5-30 05:09 PM Subject: Worst Poster
Exportedk is certainly a leading candidate for the worst poster on this forum.There is however stiff
competition.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2009-5-31 11:30 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by petera at 2009-5-30 17:09
Exportedk is certainly a leading candidate for the worst poster on this forum.There is however stiff
competition.
Hi petera:
Who cares what kind of a poster he is?
So long as he teaches the right kind of English to his students.
From the look of things, they are deprived of the freedom to learn anything besides farmspeak.
Author: wchao37 Time: 2009-5-31 11:31 AM
This is a great thread by shanhuang.
Author: manoj10 Time: 2009-5-31 11:34 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by petera at 2009-5-30 17:09
Exportedk is certainly a leading candidate for the worst poster on this forum.There is however stiff
competition.
Petera is the obnoxious poster of CDBBS. Of all his posts none of them would make any sense to him nor for anyone....
[ Last edited by manoj10 at 2009-5-31 11:41 AM ]
Author: exportedkiwi Time: 2009-5-31 02:07 PM Subject: Reply #286 wchao37's post
My students speak their mind, something I deny you the right to do you useless piece of ....well, we all know!
Author: wchao37 Time: 2009-5-31 04:00 PM
Shanhuang deserves a lot of credit for this outstanding work.
Author: davros Time: 2009-5-31 04:01 PM
Your mean Buddy35 / Gotohell ?
Author: wchao37 Time: 2009-5-31 04:04 PM
Trying to talk using ghosts, Mr. 69?
Burn in hell.
You are beheaded, and no one gives a flying fock what you say with your ghosts.
Author: davros Time: 2009-5-31 04:06 PM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by wchao37 at 2009-5-31 16:04
Trying to talk using ghosts, Mr. 69?
Burn in hell.
You are beheaded, and no one gives a flying fock what you say with your ghosts.
are you taling to me arab. ?
Author: wchao37 Time: 2009-5-31 04:13 PM
When I fish I don't use ice cream, I use worms.
When I talk to filthy ghosts, I use Grade I to Grade V King's Cowshed.
When I talk to deserving ladies and gentlemen, then I use standard language.
There is a fitting occasion for everything.
As to you, stay in the pet cemetery, and don't move around in human society.
Author: davros Time: 2009-5-31 04:14 PM
wchao37 (oneinch-grinder)
Super Member
UID 10436
Digest Posts 24
Credits 14594
Posts 13318
Registered 2003-8-22
Status Offline When I fish I don't use ice cream, I use worms.
When I talk to filthy ghosts, I use Grade I to Grade V King's Cowshed.
When I talk to deserving ladies and gentlemen, then I use standard language.
There is a fitting occasion for everything.
As to you, stay in the pet cemetery, and don't move around in human society.
2009-5-31 16:13 #294
Author: wchao37 Time: 2009-6-23 03:33 PM
Again, this post is about Zhenghe's voyages abroad in his seven trips to the "West Seas".
The book is now available in paperback edition.
Buy it and you'll understand more of what's said here.
Author: budebuai Time: 2009-7-18 02:22 AM
QUOTE:
Originally posted by wchao37 at 2009-6-23 15:33
Again, this post is about Zhenghe's voyages abroad in his seven trips to the "West Seas".
The book is now available in paperback edition.
Buy it and you'll understand more of what's ...
true
| Welcome to Chinadaily BBS (http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/) |
|