Author: tenderloin

Baidu and Alibaba not helping China semiconductor as they keep using US Nvidia [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2017-10-25 21:56:57 |Display all floors
sfphoto Post time: 2017-10-25 19:53
So both Baidu and Google are in the search engine business therefore Baidu is a copycat of Google.  ...
Are you implying that the Chinese speaking people in the USA and elsewhere working for Google can do a better job supporting the Chinese language than the Chinese working for Baidu in China


I work in this industry, and I see no indication that the difference in ethnic or language structure of these two companies' payroll shows in the level of language support that either provides. Yes, Google has great number of ethnic Chinese working for them and they don't lack in Mandarin knowledge, but I don't think that is really even relevant.

Languages in software development today are increasingly an engineering challenge rather than language skill challenge.

Where Baidu can provide better service than Google for Chinese audience, is providing more local information. That is not issue of language, or engineering, but a choice of what is valid and useful for the target audience.

Naturally also Baidu, as enterprise limited to China, must adhere to state policies, which Google does not have to do - and therefore does not operate in China. Google can make billions even without China - Baidu could not, because China is it's only market.

That said, from certain perspectives Google must logically have better Chinese speaking staff than Baidu.

Much of it goes back to cultural revolution and rebuilding of China's education system after that. Google's staff of ethnic Chinese who have experienced neither the CR nor any consequences, are not handicapped by that. Because of that they, especially the more senior staff, are better educated than their Chinese peers.

Another perspective is that Google's staff is naturally more fluent in English and other languages, than Baidu's can probably ever be. Should Google choose so, language obstacles would not prevent them from outsourcing work to India or elsewhere - even China. Baidu's options in that are more limited.

If Baidu and Google did compete in same market (without external restrictions), those two reasons alone would give Google a headstart that Baidu couldn't compensate probably even if it copied everything that Google did.

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Post time 2017-10-26 03:50:35 |Display all floors
This post was edited by sfphoto at 2017-10-26 04:29
Jaaja Post time: 2017-10-25 21:20
In no way want I imply that creating search engine B after example of search engine A is against a ...
To that question I would reply with same question put another way - in the pretext that they don't compete or serve same markets, why shouldn't they copy? It would be much more questionable or illegal to copy, if they competed in same markets.

Because Google and Baidu serve two very different markets: the USA and China, respectively. There are laws regulating content on the web in China; those laws don't exist in the USA. Baidu Baike, for example, is a service similar to Wikipedia but serves only China whose contributors must be registered not anonymous users. Another example is Baidu Maps which is a service similar to Google Maps but has animated Pixel Art 3D Maps licensed from a Chinese company called Edushi unlike the 3D silhouettes offered by Google Maps. Other examples: Baidu Music which competes against Apple Music; Baidu MP3 Search which allows searches of links to MP3 files which are legal in China but not in the USA. There are lots of other services which Baidu offers in China which Google doesn't have in the USA.

So it's not a matter of just language skills but serving the Chinese market with online services unique to China.




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Post time 2017-10-26 04:15:38 |Display all floors
This post was edited by sfphoto at 2017-10-26 08:14
Jaaja Post time: 2017-10-25 21:56
I work in this industry, and I see no indication that the difference in ethnic or language struc ...
Where Baidu can provide better service than Google for Chinese audience, is providing more local information. That is not issue of language, or engineering, but a choice of what is valid and useful for the target audience.

That was precisely my point.


Naturally also Baidu, as enterprise limited to China, must adhere to state policies, which Google does not have to do - and therefore does not operate in China. Google can make billions even without China - Baidu could not, because China is it's only market.

Google does not operate in China which means its online services does not have to comply with Chinese laws unlike Baidu. That means Baidu can't just copy Google because of certain Chinese laws. Whether Google can make more money than Baidu is irrelevant to the discussion of whether Baidu copies from Google as alleged by a poster.

That said, from certain perspectives Google must logically have better Chinese speaking staff than Baidu.

Really?


Much of it goes back to cultural revolution and rebuilding of China's education system after that. Google's staff of ethnic Chinese who have experienced neither the CR nor any consequences, are not handicapped by that. Because of that they, especially the more senior staff, are better educated than their Chinese peers.

Are you implying that Google has better Chinese speaking staff than Baidu because Google is based in the USA while Baidu is based in China which means Baidu must have copied the Chinese language services of Google to serve China, right?


Another perspective is that Google's staff is naturally more fluent in English and other languages, than Baidu's can probably ever be. Should Google choose so, language obstacles would not prevent them from outsourcing work to India or elsewhere - even China. Baidu's options in that are more limited.

That's irrelevant to the point made by a poster that Baidu copies from Google.


If Baidu and Google did compete in same market (without external restrictions), those two reasons alone would give Google a headstart that Baidu couldn't compensate probably even if it copied everything that Google did.

But they don't compete in the same markets. Baidu offers Chinese CONTENT on its online services -- Maps, News, Music, Games, Laws, Patents, Videos, etc. -- that are specifically designed to target Chinese speakers in China. For example, Baidu has a Chinese license to provide original news content which means it acts as a news agency in China. Baidu also offers online services for users to search for Chinese Laws, Patents, News, etc. Why should Baidu copy from Google when it comes to Chinese-language CONTENT unique to China such as Chinese Laws, Patents, News, etc.?

Baidu is in the Chinese CONTENT business which is heavily regulated in China, providing Chinese CONTENT unique to China in the same way that CCTV is in the Chinese CONTENT business which is heavily regulated in China, providing Chinese CONTENT unique to China. Why should CCTV copy from CNN when it comes to Chinese-language CONTENT unique to China?

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Post time 2017-10-26 09:11:39 |Display all floors
sfphoto Post time: 2017-10-26 04:15
That was precisely my point.
re you implying that Google has better Chinese speaking staff than Baidu because Google is based in the USA while Baidu is based in China which means Baidu must have copied the Chinese language services of Google to serve China, right?


I didn't want to imply this: "which means Baidu must have copied".

I was just stating that for better or worse, it is only logical that Google has better (Chinese speaking) staff than Baidu - because of historical reasons and how those continue to affect education in China. Today's junior engineers and researchers didn't live it, but their teachers and superiors did and that is not fixed in a generation or even three.

Whether or how much that contributes to Baidu needing foreign examples to develop its products is open to debate, but the fact remains. For sure Baidu as the entire company didn't just show up and implement its products without any examples abroad. AliYun is another example, clearly modelled after Amazon Web Services.

And I repeat, that I do not take much of it as copying in the way the other poster probably does.

Why should Baidu copy from Google when it comes to Chinese-language CONTENT


Yes, Baidu operates more in the content business than Google, because Google operates in market where consumers are free to create content themselves, so Google doesn't have to do it (as much as Baidu anyway).

Nobody, to my knowledge, was criticizing that Baidu copies content. The copying discussion is only about technical details in which content is processed and presented, not the content itself - Baidu is in that business too.

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Post time 2017-10-26 12:29:10 |Display all floors
This post was edited by sfphoto at 2017-10-26 15:21
Jaaja Post time: 2017-10-26 09:11
I didn't want to imply this: "which means Baidu must have copied".


I was explaining why it's not possible for Baidu to copy Google's online services because they're serving different markets. Just because Baidu and Google are both Internet Search companies does not imply ipso facto that Baidu is a copycat of Google.

Unlike US internet companies such as Google, Facebook, Yahoo, etc., Chinese internet companies such as Tencent, Netease, Sohu, etc. generate most of their revenues from online and mobile gaming not from paid advertising. The reason is that online gaming and mobile gaming didn't have any competition from PC and console gaming which didn't exist in China as an industry due to rampant piracy and outright bans. In the USA, it's the traditional video gaming publishers of PC and console games that later branched out into online and mobile gaming. Baidu is also in the online and mobile gaming business in addition to its online content businesses.

Google and Facebook hardly do their own content but rely on third-party content providers. That's because they don't want to compete against traditional media companies in the USA. Yahoo started out as an Internet company which tried but failed to turn itself into a media company. But Chinese Internet companies such as Baidu, Sina, Sohu, etc became media companies providing online content to Chinese consumers who wanted information not available from the traditional State-owned media companies in China.

US and Chinese internet companies serve two distinct and separate markets which require different business models, software platforms, operating structures and content strategies. US internet companies provide online services while Chinese internet companies provide both online services and online content such as information and games.


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Post time 2017-10-28 05:15:42 |Display all floors
This post was edited by sfphoto at 2017-10-28 05:18
Jaaja Post time: 2017-10-26 09:11
I didn't want to imply this: "which means Baidu must have copied".
Nobody, to my knowledge, was criticizing that Baidu copies content. The copying discussion is only about technical details in which content is processed and presented, not the content itself - Baidu is in that business too.

One last thing: it's difficult if not impossible to copy software platforms designed for different business models serving foreign markets. That's why lots of local Internet companies have sprung up to serve their local markets in order to comply with local laws, customs, markets, etc. That's true for service industries in general whether it's retail, banking, media, entertainment, healthcare, education, travel/tourism, transport/logistics, etc. Since Internet companies are in the services industries, the software technologies used to implement those online services are widely understood and thus don't need to be copied.

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Post time 2017-10-28 13:00:35 |Display all floors
This post was edited by Jaaja at 2017-10-28 13:15
sfphoto Post time: 2017-10-28 05:15
One last thing: it's difficult if not impossible to copy software platforms designed for different ...
That's why lots of local Internet companies have sprung up to serve their local markets in order to comply with local laws, customs, markets, etc.

This is pretty much only true in China.

How would you characterize for example Didi as compared to Uber? What local issues are there that Uber could not produce? I don't find many real reasons why Didi does better than Uber in China, other than Chinese authorities wanting to support (if not having a share in) domestic industry and frying the foreign competition out with so-called regulations.

Media, entertainment - the same thing. Surely American, Korean and Japanese culture in music, film, or other entertainment would have saturated China by now (even more than they have), if it was not for China artificially preventing it.

Why China still has some heavy local characteristics that make it difficult for foreign businesses to understand and therefore difficult to serve the Chinese audience, is that they have been articially sustained, often by blocking the same foreign businesses to begin with.

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